Seth: Hey everybody. This is Seth Williams. You're listening to the REtipster podcast. This is episode 199.

Today, I'm talking with my friend, Travis King. Travis is one of the sharpest minds in the land business. He's been up to all kinds of things over the past year. He's been staying on the bleeding edge of this industry and understanding how things are changing and what's working. Today, we're going to talk about what he's been up to for the past year, how he's adapting to the ever-changing landscape of this business.

Travis, welcome back. How's it going?

Travis: Hey Seth, thanks for having me again. I appreciate it. People are like, "Oh my gosh, get a new guest. I'm tired of this guy." Right? "I've heard Travis enough."

Seth: No, we actually, you should see our podcast analytics. Whenever you come on here, we get more downloads than we normally do. So there must be something about you that people love.

Travis: That's great. My wife and kids are probably done listening to me, so I'm glad there's some other people out there in the universe, in the podcast world that enjoy it. That's good to hear.

Seth: For sure. What's been going on in the past year? What are the highs? What are the lows? What's been getting better in the business? What's been getting harder in the business? Tell us about how things have been changing for you.

Travis: Wow. A lot more on the personal front this year with family and stuff. Yeah, we had a lot—the biggest, probably most exciting is boy number four. The last two were probably, from my wife's perspective, supposed to be girls, but no. So four boys now. We've got a five-month-old boy that we welcomed to the family.

That's been really amazing because we've got a nine-year difference between our next youngest, so that took some regrouping, took some thought, but that's a massive blessing and it's really just been a blast to get to have a newborn again and get to be dad to a baby. So that's probably the biggest event of the year.

On the personal front, and this is just—I think it's good. I'll get a little vulnerable and share for a minute. This is good because I think sometimes people hear guests, right, and everybody always puts their best foot forward and shares only the positive stuff.

But man, we have had a year, dude. My dad passed away about a year ago and that was brutal. It was absolutely brutal for me. It's been a rough year. I think I was sharing with you, we talked within a day or two of my dad passing, we found out my wife was pregnant and we were going to have this baby. So man, the emotions, right? The emotions from one extreme to the next.

Seth: Huge emotional rollercoaster there.

Travis: You know, we talk business, we talk land, we talk transactions, but we kind of skip over the personal part of it.

We welcome our baby boy. It was scary. My wife had her first C-section. It was an emergency C-section. It was like a “code blue.” All the nurses, all the doctors come running.

Seth: What does “code blue” mean?

Travis: I had to look it up. It means you're not breathing. Somebody's not breathing. And I didn't know, is it baby? Is it mom? You know, they're not letting me in the room. So it was a scary delivery. And it was kind of a situation where I'm waiting in the hallway wondering, am I losing my wife? Am I losing my baby or both? What's happening? It was helpless, dude. It was completely helpless.

That's where like all the transactions, all the companies, whatever—none of that stuff matters when you're dealing with real life. And that was intense. Thank the Lord they both pulled through. Healthy baby, we're plugging along. We get three months down the road enjoying baby boy, and we're up in Boise, Idaho.

I've got my oldest who's 16. He's on a travel baseball team. He's a pitcher. We're playing baseball up there in this tournament. And unexpectedly, Becca has a heart attack. My wife, who's like—I mean, the picture is I'm sleeping in, laying on the couch eating chips and watching the ballgame, and she's exercising.

So like it doesn't make any sense at all. Young and healthy, and out of nowhere, my wife had a massive heart attack when we were traveling. We spent a week in the hospital. She had to have surgery. Everything's stable now.

But what a year, dude. What a year. And we haven't even talked about land.

So on the personal front, I don't want to suggest those things are negative. That's life—life throws curveballs at you sometimes. Sometimes life is heavier on the life front than the work front. And that's kind of been this year, but I feel like we're moving to the season where we bent, but didn't break. We kind of weathered the storm and everybody's on the mend.

Seth: What was that like when all that is happening? You've got these personal life crises going on, but you're also juggling this professional life where you got four different companies that are all high functioning. Can you just drop it for a month and come back to it?

It's just this weird moment where you're torn between what really matters, which is your personal life, and then this other stuff that doesn't not matter. How do you manage that stuff? Was that a huge challenge?

Travis: That's where I'd say—and we're on such a small level sometimes when we call ourselves entrepreneurs. You know, guys like Bill Gates, Steve Jobs—they'd be like, "Are Seth and Travis really entrepreneurs?"

So I use that term loosely, but none of the entrepreneur, none of the business stuff matters when health comes up. Same thing with Steve Jobs, right? Look at that. How much of your money would you have given up to have another 10 years of life?

That stuff immediately takes priority. We're fortunate that the companies are very process-oriented. They're not people-dependent. They're process-dependent by design. And that means that if Travis isn't there, if Becca isn't there, we can keep head above water. It doesn't mean for six months everything would run flawlessly, but it means that we can step away for a minute and survive.

So you're right. You're not checking emails. You're not answering phones for weeks or months and everything still functions. But that's just a reflection of all the previous efforts, the foundation that's been laid to do that.

So that was the focus. And then I've got a newborn baby, right? As my wife's working through this. A lot of this year has been more like, "Hey, let's focus on the family. Let's focus on what matters."

Everything kept cranking, money keeps coming in to keep things functioning, and then you really focus on what matters. It does kind of help you reset or reframe what matters because sometimes—I don't know about you, but for me sometimes it's hard to be present when I'm thinking about company and business and things. Sometimes as a dad, as a husband, it's hard to be present. But sometimes life kind of smacks you upside the head and says, "All right, here's what really matters."

Seth: First of all, my heart just breaks for you with your dad and your wife. That is serious, traumatic stuff. Whenever I hear about that, I think about what would I do if that was me? And that would be incredibly difficult—just mentally, but also trying to fill in the gaps where your wife is doing so much.

C.S. Lewis has this quote. He says, "The homemaker has the ultimate career and all other careers exist for one purpose only, and that is to support the ultimate career." So like, he's kind of got the most important job. Like that's what everything is really there to do.

Travis: Without question. She's the linchpin. And the kids didn't hesitate to let me know that too. As soon as everything was kind of stable but still concerning, they were like, "Dad, how are you going to do this? All you know how to do is talk about land." We don't know anything about packing lunches or kids' schedules and stuff. But I think the beauty of a partnership is there's times you pick up slack. There's lots of times they pick up slack, and you kind of work through things.

Seth: Your dad actually said something, or at least you said it was your dad said this, that has stuck with me a lot: "It's easy to soar like an eagle when you're surrounded by turkeys."

Travis: I think at the time that was his way—he wasn't big on compliments. I think that was his way of like the backhanded compliment. When very young, very early, I'd gotten a pretty significant promotion in my 20s, and I was managing 40-50 year olds at the time. And I kind of shared that with him. And that's what he said: "Well, yeah, I've met your team. It's pretty easy to soar like an eagle when you're surrounded by turkeys."

He's got a lot of great idioms, a lot of great one-liners. And ironically, although I became aware of land through actually you—through listening to BiggerPockets or podcasts or hearing you talk about it and then researching it, flipping single parcels as a business model—ironically, my dad subdivided ranches and sold on seller finance in the eighties and nineties. So it's very interesting that I would end up in land. There were no courses for it or anything. It was just something that he did.

It’s just so funny. It took me two and a half years or so to write the Land Investors Playbook, and something I was really excited to share with my dad because I didn't tell anybody outside of my wife that I was writing this book. I was really excited to share with my dad because honestly, land was his love language. Growing up, I know some kids want to be exactly what their parents are and other kids want to be the total opposite. Well, I was like the total opposite. I did not want to do what my parents did.

So for me to end up in land was something—my dad, he didn't just subdivide land or sell land. He loved land. He loved walking the land. And I'm kind of the counter to that—like, how can I sell land and how can I harvest equity and capture equity and realize gains without ever having to touch foot on it? That comes from, as a kid, having to walk land, having to mark corners, do these things and put in fences.

So it's funny that I would end up in land, but yeah, my dad definitely had influence. I was really excited to share the book with him. Unfortunately, he passed a couple months before the book came out, because I'd shared a couple of little stories in there about him.

Seth: And this was a sudden thing, right? Like you weren't expecting this—it just happened?

Travis: No, it was sudden.

Land for me was like—it's just funny to end up in land. My aunt and my dad both subdivided land and sold land via seller financing since the 80s. My dad actually used to buy it with seller financing, subdivide it, and sell off the children parcels on payments. I kind of thought this was some Montana redneck agreement or arrangement. I didn't realize it was a super sophisticated deal strategy that I now use myself and now teach. I just thought it was something that was kind of a backwoods Montana thing.

But yeah, so it's funny to end up in land where I've got some family that's been doing it since the 80s.

Seth: Your book, I'm glad you brought that up, The Land Investors Playbook. I remember we were talking last year that was just about to drop. It was about to happen. And I listened to the audiobook—amazingly high-quality audiobook, by the way. You just sound super pro and you're very easy to listen to.

And all the listeners out there, if you've not checked out this book yet, check it out. It's by far the best land investing book I've ever read. And you just nail it. It really is a playbook where you can kind of pick and choose which approach you want to take, the pros and cons of each one. I think it was the Land Boss, the Boss Method—I mean, that was exactly what I needed to hear 10 years ago. And you just laid it out so clearly.

It's basically following a bit of a different business model in terms of what you're willing to offer and the disposition strategy and always using title companies for those and using real estate agents. It takes a lot of the assumptions that most people have when they're taking a course and it's like, "No, it doesn't work like that anymore. We're in a different class of land."

And just the way you explained it was beautiful. So everybody out there, just drop what you're doing, push pause, you'll get that book. It's an awesome book.

Travis: Yeah, Amazon, the Land Investor’s Playbook. You can pick it up there—the audiobook, depending on how you like to consume things. But it was something where I saw a lot of the content was honestly just lead magnets, like these skinny little books that were lead magnets to a course.

The Land Investor’s Playbook was epiphanies along the way of our own business evolution. As we moved from small deals to bigger deals, we moved from closing and buying and selling ourselves to using title companies, to using agents, to doing bigger deals, using other people's money.

And really for me, it was as I would coach people, I'd kind of share with them these specific strategies and I would end up answering the same questions over and over again.

So I started to put together a Google Doc and it was like, "You know what? If I had this in book format, I could say, 'Hey, before you coach with me, read the whole book.' And now you're oriented and neither one of us has to spend—you don't need to spend your hard-earned money on calls, learning something that you could have in the book. You're oriented by the time you find me." And I don't have to repeat the kind of FAQ-type things.

But it just grew, dude. It just grew as we started writing it. You know how it is. You just keep rewriting it and then you go, "Yeah, it's good, but not great." And this project that's supposed to be six months turns into two and a half years. But I'm thankful that we were able to bring it across the finish line and get it in people's hands, because that was really the goal—not just a lead magnet, not something a skinny marketing piece, but actually like, "Hey, these are the plays we use in our playbook."

And just with the caveat that like, that doesn't mean you have to do all of them, everybody and all at once. I don't want to overwhelm you, but I want you to understand the different strategies. Sometimes one resonates with people. Sometimes they read the chapter on subdividing and they go, "Oh, this is all I'm ever going to do. Why would I do anything else?"

So that was really the intent of the book—to share our business model with others. Obviously in the book, I can't show you where to click your mouse and what software is currently the best for this strategy. That's kind of more the coaching piece of it. But I can certainly share the framework and make you aware of some strategies that are beyond the current strategy—regurgitated, same old, small single parcel flip thing that's being taught for decades.

Seth: And that was kind of what I loved about it. Some people I feel like have a decent understanding of like the tired old strategy that's been taught for 15 years. But with just a few tweaks from some of these things, it's like, "Oh yeah, I didn't realize I could do that too." And this opens up this huge new vein of opportunity that I was blind to, because I was focused on buying and selling desert squares for cheap.

Travis: Well, and you kind of hear that like, "Hey, if you're a hammer"—you've probably heard that before—"everything looks like a nail." And that's kind of how some people operate.

But if you're open to other strategies and marketing pieces and exit strategies, it's kind of the whole like, instead of "I can't," kind of go, "How can I?" And you go, "Well, this doesn't work for a buyout right at 50%. But maybe it's a good double close. I can buy it at 75, 70%." Or, "This doesn't work here. But how could I still convert this lead?" Or you go, "Geez, like, yeah, this is a decent deal, but what if I subdivided and added value, then it becomes real juicy?" And then you go, "And then what if I sold it off with seller financing at 10% plus interest?" Then it starts to look real good.

And that was the goal of the book, to introduce new strategies that maybe aren't—I certainly didn't necessarily invent all of them, but bringing awareness to people of what worked in our own business and piquing curiosity. And then hopefully people resonate with one of the plays in the playbook and it becomes a, has a big impact on their business.

Seth: Has that book played a pretty big role in your business over the past year? Like, do a lot of people discover you through that or is it—

Travis: Here's the interesting thing—because yet today, I mean, at the time of this recording, Seth, I haven't paid a penny to promote it. We kind of wanted to see organically what could happen. And we'll probably move into some paid ads and promotions on the book. But just by itself, I wanted to see what it could do.

And it's interesting because it's one of those things—you hear the saying, the publisher told me this—it's like, there's a lot of people who go, "I'm a bestseller. You know, I've got 10,000 copies in my basement to prove it." Kind of jokingly that, you know, you just don't know how a book's going to do until you get it out there. And it's been really nice to know that there's all these—we're a small niche within land, but there's some very dedicated people. A lot of people just as obsessed as me about this asset class.

So people have been really receptive to it. And it's been kind of cool to have people find us through that because there's some familiarity by the time they find you. They're kind of familiar with your strategies, your style. And it's kind of like you're no longer handing out a business card of sorts—the book is the business card in a sense, and people are just oriented and familiar with you.

And then we've also had a number of opportunities that weren't intended with passive investors saying, "Hey, like how do I put money in?" The book is more geared towards active operators, active land investors, but something we didn't intend to seek out was passive investors reaching out saying, "Hey, came across your book, read your book—where do you get your money? How much do you pay for your money? What are you borrowing your money at? Can I be your money guy or your money gal?"

So that was kind of the interesting piece of it—the passive investors being attracted to it and saying, "Where are all these operators? How are they getting their deals funded?" So there was some positive byproduct there that we never planned on that came in because of the book.

Seth: I remember, wasn't one of the plays in the playbook funding land deals?

Travis: Leveraging other people's money is a theme woven throughout it.

Seth: But it's not really talking something about that.

Travis: No, that's just a theme of more of like—it's similar to people that double close. Double closing is very scalable because you're not using your own capital. Same thing with funding is just that it doesn't hamstring you. So for me, I'd say it's more of like a pillar in the business model than it is a strategy. But leveraging other people's money really allows you to scale. You're just so limited using your own.

Seth: The funding thing is a really cool sub-opportunity in the land business because there are situations where like I could fund a deal, and other situations where like I would need a funder to do the deal. It's like you don't have to be one or the other. It just depends on who you are, what you got, and what opportunities you have.

Travis: There are situations where—like when I saw a lot of the house gurus, most of the business models are the same where there's these cheap tripwire courses to get them in these communities. And then ultimately you're funneling deals to this big guru. And then you're assigning it to them for a very small assignment fee and they end up with all this equity. And I'm like, "Oh my gosh"—one, if you want to assign, that's great. But it's just kind of this endless treadmill to nowhere of the small assignments.

And so I always thought it like on the inverse—what if I brought deals to my clients? What if I brought my students deals versus saying, "Hey, bring me your deal" and I take all the equity? But yeah, we do both. There's situations where somebody has an assignment and they don't want to wait six months. And you tell them like, "Hey, there's more. This is the quick nickel. That would be the slow quarter," and they go, "Yeah, I want the quick nickel. I want to assign it to you."

But there's other times where I go, "Hey, I found a deal that I think would be a good fit for what you're doing." So an example would be right now I have two coaching clients who found a big subdivide project and I'm bringing them both in on the subdivide deal. And they're each going to end up with five children parcels on the subdivide. And it's a situation where I'm actually bringing the deal to them. I'm actually assigning it to them so that they can do the subdivide and then they'll each do the subdivide. They'll add the value.

So yeah, you're right. You're in situations where there's times where I'm the assigner, I'm the assignee, I'm the funder, I'm the fundee. Same with me. When things get up over a point for me over about 300,000, that's where I'm kind of like, I don't want to use my own money. Like, do I want to wire like four—we have one right now that's 300 and another that's 450. And I'm like, yeah, I could keep everything myself. But that's a chunk. You know what I mean? It's easy to just say that number out loud. It's another thing to hit send on the wire.

Seth: It takes a ton of courage to do that kind of thing.

Travis: Yeah, absolutely. People you've done a massive—right, a massive storage shed build, right? A couple million dollars. So sometimes people just throw numbers out there. But when you're legitimately sending wires, it's a different game. So there's times even for me where I go like, it's not that I can't afford it. It's just for me to de-risk, I would rather share some of the equity on this versus tying up my own capital. And everybody, it's at different levels, I think.

Seth: What I love about what you teach is kind of going back to how your book is laid out, how there's these different angles you can go at a deal. It's like, "Hey, if it doesn't make sense for this, I could sort of reposition myself and do this." And it's cool because you can basically have a lot more tools in your toolbox to do different things.

Is there any validity to the idea of like, "I realize I can do this and that and that, but I'm going to specialize on these two plays on purpose. I'm going to ignore everything else just to be really good at"—like, does that ever make sense? Or do you choose anything to specialize in?

Travis: Absolutely. Almost each play in the Land Investor’s Playbook could be a business model. What I tell people when I'm coaching is I'm not gonna give you a cookie-cutter template. I go, "What kind of business do you want to own? What is successful?" Do you—just a young guy in his 20s might be like, "Hey, I want to actually have an office space. I want to have a team, I want to have a logo, a brand." And somebody who's older might be like, "I just want the max revenue with the least input and the least team." So it's kind of like what makes sense for you.

It's the same thing with the strategies—what's in alignment with what you're trying to accomplish. If somebody wants to build up a lot of recurring revenue by notes, I might suggest to them if I'm coaching them, "Hey, let's buy properties, let's subdivide them. And then you turn one parcel into five and then let's create five notes and you sell those off," because that would help you accomplish your goal.

Now, if you're doing that, you don't need to be doing my waterfront targeting or portfolio takedowns or all these things, because for you, that's all you need. It's really just presenting a menu. You go to a restaurant, you open up a menu and you don't go, "I'll have one of everything." You go, "Well, these three look good," but eventually at some point you got to kind of pick one entrée.

Travis: That's kind of one of everything—that's my problem, right? I'm like, "Well, I'll have three desserts and I'll have those before the meal."

Seth: I’m gonna pick one of everything.

Travis: That's a problem, right? “I'm like, well, I'll have three desserts and I'll have those before the meal.”

So that's kind of the intent of the book—what resonates for you and what makes sense with what you're doing? It's not to say, "Hey, you should be doing all seven of these things." All these strategies just came as byproduct of the old archaic countywide marketing. Each of these strategies came as byproduct. So we just kind of said, "Hey, how do we get intentional about replicating and repeating that outcome, that profit, that deal type?" That’s really all we did.

But yeah, certainly not like, "Hey, you needed to be doing all these and all these at once." It's kind of like marketing—you wouldn't take a newbie and you wouldn't say, "Hey, you should mail, you should text, you should cold call, you should send a ringless voicemail, you should send emails." Like, oh my goodness. You go, "Hey, let's pick one. Let's get good at one. Let's exploit it, scale it. And then when you feel like you got it down, maybe we'll move on to a second one."

Kind of same thing with the plays. Let's find a play that works for you, that makes sense, rather than overwhelming you with all of them at once. But usually there's one or two that really resonate with people and they're attracted to—"Hey, I want to target waterfront properties. That excites me." Rather than looking like you said, desert properties. You know, I'm in Arizona, right? So for me, like if there's a tree on a property, we're going to get seven different angles of that tree on the onsite photos because all the photos look the same. But when you're reviewing waterfront lots in Florida, it's much more exciting—for me anyway. And I think a lot of people feel the same.

So there's certain property types or acquisition strategies and disposition strategies where people go, "Hey, this excites me. This resonates. I'm passionate about it." It's not just flipping land. "I actually like the subdivide process. I like the value add. I can offer the seller more." So it's really for them like finding within the book what chapter—and most people have a favorite. It's like, "Hey, this, I really liked this one. Not so much this or not yet." That doesn't make sense. But there's usually something for everybody.

Seth: You mentioned all the different marketing channels that you can use, but it's better to like, you go to one and then maybe think about another one. Where we're at, at this point in time, you know, late 2024, what's your favorite one? Is it still direct mail or has that changed at all? Or maybe if you could have one or two, what would your two be and why?

Travis: Yeah, well, I think, again, it's like start out with intent. Like, what am I trying to accomplish? What am I trying to make on a deal? I always feel like for the inexpensive properties where there's not a big variance in pricing, just sending direct mail blind offers is wildly efficient at the cheaper price point. The challenge is when you get into higher value properties, accurately estimating values up to $300,000, $400,000. You can be off by so much that maybe it's not effective.

But ultimately, for the most part, if you really put thought into this—and some people, like I have a couple of clients who are like introverts, and they're like, "I do not want to talk to anybody ever." So I go, "Okay, for your business, we're doing blind offers. And there's going to be a lot of work on the front end, but we'll do blind offers by direct mail for you."

For somebody else who says, "Hey, I'm a social butterfly. I love to chat with people on the phone, build rapport, get to know them, don't mind like a lot of phone calls," then I go, "Okay, well, blind offers wouldn't make sense. That would rob you of like your superpower of talking to people."

So for me, a lot of the time for most people, I would say almost all marketing that we do, we're eventually trying to get them on the phone. Like even the texting, the letter, the RVM, all these things—what's the call to action? It's usually like, "Call me back." So ultimately, if we can start with that platform, like cold calling, if we can start with that platform, that medium that we're driving them to, we've immediately maybe reduced one touch point by saying, "Hey, if we can just cold call them, get them on the phone."

You can't text a landline. That's fantastic, but it's the same reason when people do letters. A lot of people come from other asset classes and they go, "Oh my gosh, you land investors are so behind, you're all sending mail." And you go, "Well, that's because everybody that owns land gets a tax bill. How does the assessor send the bill? By mail. Who gets the bill? Everybody." They don't text the bill with a payment link because you can't text a landline.

So a lot of the times what's driving the marketing channel is, "What reaches the most people?" But for me, I always go like, if the call to action is to get them on the phone, it makes sense to start with that. So I'm a big fan of cold calling because we can call landlines and mobile phones. We can't text landlines. So I would prefer cold calling over texting.

But a lot of people, you just stack rank the cost—like it's so cheap to send a ringless voicemail, send an email, send a text. And it's much more expensive to do a cold call or to send a letter. But for me, ultimately with our business, most of the time we're trying to get them on the phone. So if we can start with that, we kind of collapse that acquisition cycle and that negotiation.

But I personally tell people if I coach you, I build it on your personality and what you want to do, not like stuff down your throat what works for me. Because if you're sweating on the phone and you don't want to talk to people but you love spending hours in spreadsheets and pricing things, then I would say, "Yeah, we're just going to have your business built on very, very accurately and intelligently priced blind offers via direct mail."

But the social butterfly over here, we're going to want him on the phone because he might go drive and meet people. He might talk to people. He's good. People are going to sell their land to him, not because his price was right. Whereas you, you don't want to never talk to anybody, right? So, I think it's very subjective or personal.

Seth: So those people who don't want to get on the phone, do you think they're at a disadvantage? Like, do you think that hurts them?

Travis: Yes, I do. Because I was one of them. Hey, life rewind a decade or so. That was me. Like, you're an engineer behind multiple massive monitors, and anytime my phone rings, it's like, "Ugh!" That's how I kind of used to be. So I can relate. I can honestly relate to that.

And I just feel like conversation can be unpredictable. It can be wildly inefficient. But when I closed everything and we did everything kind of ourselves, what I realized, I wasn't building a network and I wasn't building a portfolio of contacts. I wasn't building relationships.

So when I bought everything with direct mail and blind offers and self-closed, I wasn't building a directory of title companies and title agents. When I listed everything myself, I wasn't building contacts in a directory of agents and brokers. When I started subdividing, I start meeting surveyors, land use consultants.

So what happens is although you kind of mask, you know, you kind of are working within being an introvert, you never grow. So you're either delaying what is inevitable, or you're just building the company around those limitations.

I think sometimes, man, the reason you dread stuff, it's because that's what growth feels like. Growth is uncomfortable, and that's usually what is going on, why you feel uncomfortable—you're doing something outside the norm. And you might want to embrace that and just grow and stretch a little.

But at the end of the day, it's your business, you get to build it how you want. You can be a one-man lone wolf. I was crushing it doing blind offers, one-person operation, but my whole world expanded as soon as I started to approach things through a different lens of like, "Hey, this is a team sport, not an individual sport."

Same thing, opportunities come our way. All of a sudden those agents you're listing with, they've got pocket listings. They've got people who are about to do a fire sale. Deals and opportunity find you, the more network you have. When you silo yourself, the only opportunities that happen are the ones you create.

So that's my take, but I can relate, man. I can resonate. I was there. I was one of them. And I'm not going to say I shed my skin and evolved. It was painful and it was slow and it was clunky, but ultimately for me to grow and do bigger deals and create more opportunity and abundance, we had to. We just had to.

Seth: Tell me about your coaching. I know that's a big thing you do? What are the different coaching programs you've got at this point? Is it one-on-one or a group or what does that look like?

Travis: Well, a lot of people—I feel like what we used to do, and I'll pull back the curtain, I'll share with you exact numbers. We did what I would call, in terms of land, a really big launch—maybe not in other industries—but a couple of years ago we decided, "Hey, I want to work on branding. I want to like, I've been teaching people very informally kind of kitchen table casually, but I want to launch the brand."

So we hired some super overpriced, with great resume, marketers and consultants. And we kind of had our branding built out for us. They worked with me on everything from the logos and slogans to the courses and the value ladder. And as we worked through this, I learned some things because I shared—they looked at our course, they said, "Okay, like what percent completion rate of people are finishing your course? Who buys the course? What percent of people that are doing your group coaching have success?"

And it was pretty cool because instead of just saying, "How much can we sell?" they go, "What do you think's the best value product? And what do people have the most success with? Let's look at that.” And what we looked at was for me, when I was a course consumer, I will buy a course—it might be multifamily, single family, whatever—I will go through the course seven times. And I could teach the course by the time I'm done. And what I learned is that like, that's unique to me. That doesn't mean everybody's that way.

Here's the interesting thing. When I worked with a consultant, he looked at our courses and he said, "Okay, you have like an 18% to 22% completion rate." And I go, "Oh my gosh, that's terrible. Like 18% to 22% of people buying the course are finishing at 100%." And he's like, "Oh, that's incredible. Industry standard was like 8% to 11%." So he's like, "This is great."

That's a disservice. And so that's kind of what we talked about—like, am I just hawking courses or are people completing the course? But when we went to group coaching, we're like 82% of people that were in our group coaching program finished the whole course. And that's because I'm teaching, I'm teaching it live, not somebody else. I'm actually teaching. I do live questions and answers.

And what we learned throughout that was that the group coaching was where people were taking the most action and getting the most value out of it. So group coaching is now what I like to do even over selling the courses. The courses are scalable, they're passive, if we're looking at it from a business model, but what serves people best was group coaching.

And some of my star students that you know went on to do some pretty amazing things started with my group coaching and then ascended into one-on-one coaching with me. So that's kind of like the entry point for a lot of people. If they don't have familiarity with land, they go through our group coaching that gives them access to the course. But I also do live question and answer.

And then I have a limited number of spots because I don't have a big coaching team. It's just me and I'm selective. And if you text me and say, "Hey, I got somebody, I got a referral," I take referrals and then I just top grade people I want to work with.

So we do our group coaching that includes courses, I offer one-on-one coaching. And then we have a mastermind where a lot of the stuff you see in the book—I can't again, like I said, I can't share my screen and show you what software is working today to pull waterfront properties or subdivide candidates. And that's kind of what the mastermind really is—like you said, "Hey, what's working for lead generation right now? What marketing?" Well, it changes. Four years ago, it was direct mail. Two years ago, it was texting. This year it's cold calling.

So that's where kind of the mastermind is—you've got your finger on the pulse. If you're in the mastermind, you're incredibly current because we're sharing real time what works for us. And then also I'm getting feedback from the heavy hitters in our community that some of them got bigger companies, run bigger operations than we do.

Seth: I know on that whole thing of what's working today and all this stuff. So you've got a page on your website. I think it's the Tools page. I don't know how often you keep that updated, but I can link to that in the show notes if people want to see what Travis has to recommend. Let's go to retipster.com/199. I'll have a link to that page and Travis's site in the show notes.

Travis: Yeah, perfect. We try to keep that updated based on what—as you do, I'm sure you get reached out much more than I do, but from vendors, vendors are happy to pay an affiliate, but I'm like, if I haven't used you or my students or somebody in our community hasn't... We'll have people that go, "Hey, I'm using this. It's awesome. You should, you need to know about it if you don't, Travis." And then we can look at it and promote it. But we just don't want it to be like an affiliate gallery. We really want it to be preferred vendors or vendors that work for us or somebody in our community that we value their opinion.

So yeah, you can always go to—we generally keep TravisKing.com as kind of the hub where we try to keep things updated, but you'll be able to link to the most current.

Seth: You've got, I think, four different businesses. So you've got your land business, you've got funding business, you've got the coaching business, and you've got the CRM. Are those the four of them?

Travis: Yep. So what we've got is kind of in order of how they were started out of necessity. The land is the main thing and always needs to stay the main thing. And I think that's kind of the problem for others is when we get too far out or lean into other things. We keep the main thing, the main thing, and that's land acquisition. That's evolved from high numbers of transactions, lower deals to a lower number of transactions. We like to—each year, I like to do less deals and bigger deals and more subdivides. Like right now, subdividing is my absolute favorite thing. So that's kind of the land company, our land acquisition company.

And then as I started helping others, that's where the coaching came in. Long before I had a course or any products or offerings, I was just helping people—like on your moderators, right? I'm sure you've got great moderators, people that stand out and are go-givers and help for no reason. That's how I started helping people out.

And then they would find deals. And then they would say like, "Hey, will you joint venture with me?" And one, it was like, either I don't have the money, but you helped me get the deal, or I have the money, but my wife would kill me if I spent all our money on this deal. I'd feel much better about using your money and splitting profits.

And that's kind of where the coaching started because we realized like—oh, I was pretty naive in the beginning and just helping everybody but I realized these services have to be separate entities. We kind of need to silo these and stand these up as separate business entities and that's where the coaching consulting became one.

And then over and over again, people would—capital would become the problem once they got over actually getting deals. Then the money became the problem. That's where we started the capital company is to joint venture more with students than it is to like go out there and promote and try to get a whole bunch of funding business. So the capital company's really started to JV with students I was already helping.

And then with time, we learned that we know better in our own workflow, in our own business, every scenario of every stage of a lead and how to follow up with leads and what works and what doesn't. And that kind of led to the CRM, Lead Boss CRM. And really it was like, it's about follow-up is really what it is. There's a million CRMs out there. But for us, what I learned, and this was kind of like based around my personality was—and you've got a great co-host, you've got Ajay Sharma. Ajay is just like leans into self-development and he’s a monster closer, and he's gonna be, he's already great. He's going to be like incredible, you know, fast forward a decade from now at working the phone and Jordan Belfort, Wolf of Wall Street, Grant Cardone, Roger Dawson, these master closers. He's probably going to be one of those.

That's not my love language. So like I more how I convert people has more to do generally with rapport building and relating than like a very methodical conversion. And that's not one's better than the other. It's just like it's my business. I get to run it how I want. I want to do what I want.

But what I learned was like, "Hey, Travis, all you've done through all the self-development has moved from terrible to maybe slightly above average at sales and negotiation." But what I learned along the way of realizing I'm never going to be that master closer was follow-up was easy and other people weren't following up.

So for me, that was kind of like how I can offset that—like, I'm not a master closer was, "Well, I will follow up with you four times and everybody else will only do it once." So I started to really build out my own automated follow-up systems via email, text, ringless voicemail. And I started to convert leads on the acquisition and disposition side with all this automated follow-up.

And then I just continued to refine it. And that was really where the CRM came in was like, "Hey, how can I share my exact workflows and my follow-up with the students I'm coaching?" And rather than teaching people, Seth, it's a long process to teach people how to become like a monster closer if they don't come from that environment.

And even then, again, I go, am I the best person to be teaching that? Like lead generation and acquisitions is my thing. But my area of genius is not that sales and negotiation piece. But man, I'm pretty darn good at follow-up. And especially when it's like repeatable and process-oriented and it's automated. That's the beautiful part—it doesn't require me.

So that was the software part of it was like, how can I help people that maybe don't want to have to become amazing at closing? And we can just get them an extra deal or two a year based on automated drips and follow-ups and sequences. And that's where kind of the CRM comes in.

But yeah, it's all linear. It's kind of all part of the process. And each one was just kind of an opportunity that came up out of necessity along the way. But yeah, they're each their own entity. They're each their own small business right now. The way we run them is they all have, including founder, we try to keep them at seven people or less. So it's more of like a micro team or a micro business. And that's where we're at right now. Rather than scaling one, we just prefer to kind of have micro businesses and four lines of revenue.

Seth: Do you have like partners in each of these businesses? Is that how you're able to do so much? I know just like for me this past year, that has been a big revelation to me. And something I've been diving a lot more into is just looking for those strategic partners that can enable me to do so much more. The whole "who not how" thing. Is that something that you embrace too?

Travis: Yes. To a point where you understand—like we have in two of our four businesses, we have partners. I asked a mentor before I started this and he's like, he said, "Man, Travis, he's like, dude, I love big ships. I love little ships. He said, I love blue ships. I love red ships. He said, you know what I don't like? Partnerships." So he's like, "Don't do partnerships.”

So that was kind of his experience. And what I learned, though, is it can be really good or really bad, like whether you're on the same page. And sometimes you go, "Do I really need a partner or do I just need a consultant that knows what I don't know?"

So that's the decision you make—do I really need to bring on a partner and give up 50 percent equity to shore up my weakness? Or do I just need to leverage a consultant and pay for that or get access to whatever I'm lacking?

A big part of our business is like my secret weapon is kind of behind the scenes. My wife, she ran—before we got married, she was in the mortgage industry and she was specifically in reverse mortgages. And her branch, and specifically her, she led the nation in closing reverse mortgage loans. So she's a monster. She's a top producer. And she has just recently finished up her MBA.

And so she's kind of what I'd say—I'm kind of the visionary and action taker. And she very much runs, she's COO of all four companies. So she kind of like—I kind of create the chaos. And then she makes sure we actually follow through and execute. So she's kind of my secret weapon. And there's a partnership even within that, with our own entities.

So two of our four companies, like we own outright, the other two, we have partners in, and yeah, the partnerships have allowed us to do things kind of similar to funding. They allow us to execute on something that maybe would have never happened if we didn't have a partner. And it's same for them. For them, maybe it was an idea they couldn't execute without you.

But at the same time, there's other situations where you go, "Well, do I need a partner or do I just need like a consultant or do I just need a line of credit?" So it's definitely a really, really deliberate decision, similar to picking a spouse. You want to spend some time on this and pick the right partner because you live with them.

Seth: I think the thing that helped me get over—because for many years, I had that same mentality of "partnerships bad, don't do it" kind of thing. But the thing that got me comfortable with it was when I figured out how to basically plan the divorce before the marriage.

Like going into it, thinking, "Okay, if something goes wrong, how can I not be stuck? Where's my eject button where either they can get out or I can get out, but we're not stuck?"

Travis: You're going, "Who gets the kids and the dog?" And you're like, "Wait, we don't even have kids or a dog yet!" But you're right. That's the main thing—you get everything on paper. Anything that's going to be a tough conversation later, you anticipate and get in the operating agreement and get on paper now. And it's better to have those conversations now with worst-case scenarios than things arise and neither one of you expect.

But that's growth. That's for me—I was a hard worker, I was a top performer, top producer, but I wasn't a business owner. I didn't have business acumen. So these are things you learn along the way. And sometimes you learn them by making mistakes. And sometimes you learn expensive mistakes. And then sometimes you can take what you've learned from the last mistake into the next company, the next business, the next venture you do.

I think sometimes it's easy to just go, "Nope, I'll never do this" because somebody said it. It's kind of like a rental—like if you had a bad tenant or you speak to somebody who has a bad tenant and they've only owned one rental, they hate rentals and rentals are terrible because they've created this bias from their one experience.

It's the same thing. If you had a really positive partnership, you're going to be high on them. If you had a negative one, you're going to be low. But ultimately, you've kind of just got to be open-minded about it, I think.

Seth: So I am wondering, Donald Trump, he's going to be our president again. The economy is kind of changing. A lot of people have been having trouble with selling a disposition over the past year. Struggle has been kind of a common theme that I've just heard and seen a lot of.

What do you think this means for land investors? Where do you think this industry is going? Is there anything that you recommend people do differently or start thinking about differently in the months ahead?

Travis: Yeah. The administrations have huge impact on the economy. Like real estate is a piece of the economy. That's what we care about. That's what we're talking about. So everything from interest rates, how do interest rates impact activity? How do they impact buyer behavior? How do they impact demand?

So trust me, I game theory this out, the decision tree, like, "All right, if we're—who gets elected, how will we approach that?" And I think we're moving into probably what's going to be expansion—values going up, interest rates going down, a lot of activity. Prices are definitely going to go up, but I also think there's going to be a ton of activity.

I think when there's uncertainty, which we've had—it’s pretty easy to know what side of the fence I’m on, but without getting into politics—when there's wars, when there's inflation, people hang on to their money. People are uncertain and that's our land buyers. And when interest rates are really high, people can't afford payments. So it becomes stagnant.

So I think we're about to move into an era where there's going to be a lot of transactional activity, a lot of opportunity.

Now the challenge is, my thought was like, "Hey, if Kamala gets elected, properties are going to be a lot harder to sell, but easier to buy." That was my approach. Meaning like sellers are in a tougher position, people are hurting. So the buying gets easier. You can buy cheaper, you can convert at a higher clip, but then we list properties and is there a buyer pool there to absorb them?

And then with Trump is the other situation where it's kind of like what happened during the pandemic COVID—like if we got anything, we could buy and sell anything in weeks. But the challenge was sellers want top dollar because values were skyrocketing so quickly. I think that's also the market we might find ourselves in where values start to go up. There's a lot of activity, a lot of optimism, but it's harder to get the deals for 25 cents on the dollar. So we might have to buy a little deeper.

But I feel like on the sell side, there's going to be a lot more activity, a lot of buyers out there.

And especially regardless of the administration, it's just the simple act of interest rates. Interest rates have such an impact on the real estate industry that that alone, without all the other political nonsense—just lowering rates make money more affordable for everybody and make people feel better about taking on payments or buying something that's a necessity, that recreational piece of land to maybe put a cabin on.

That happens in good markets and good economies of abundance. It doesn't happen during lean times. It's a tough sell to your wife to use that savings account to go buy that potential cabin property up north that you may or may not never use when inflation's high and raises are low.

So yeah, I think it's going to have a massive impact. But I also think that there's just—sometimes we go through these seasons where our first seven years, I would say it was just an ascending market. And I don't think we did well, but I don't think I learned anything from it. It was really predictable.

You go look at its for-sale comps, you go look at sold comps, the for-sale price was always a little bit higher than the sold price. It was pretty obvious. And then we went through this big change in the shift. And now all of a sudden you're looking at for-sale and sold comps and you go, "Why is the for-sale cheaper than the sold? What's happening here?" And you go, "Well, that's a market correction."

So I think that as long as people keep their finger on the pulse, as investors, it's what we do. We know the land sellers, the property owners are lagging a little bit. Sometimes they know what the TV is telling them. And sometimes they're six to nine months behind what actually is happening. But we're doing deals every week, every month, so we're pretty current.

And sometimes there's a little disconnect. Even when that market slowed down, sellers for several months still thought we were in a white-hot market. And we're like, "No, no, no. Things have changed." Like I have properties listed. They're not moving.

So that becomes the conversation in a slower market. That's what we talk to people about is like, "Hey, things aren't selling, things aren't moving. A couple of years ago, I could have paid you this. But right now, the inventory is sitting. So I don't feel good about offering that. I can only do this."

Sometimes you have to buy deeper, double close. So you just address like the plays in the playbook. Like you adjust the strategy based on what market you're in. You just don't sit out the market because things change. You just adjust.

Like people might have heard about assuming loans or assuming mortgages. For decades and decades, like us younger guys, we'd look at it and go, "Why would I get a 2.9 rate on my house? Why would I assume anybody's loan?" Or you realize you look back and it came from like the 80s when interest rates were like 18%, 20%. Like when nobody wanted to originate a new loan. So they assumed the old loan that had a way better rate.

Well, so nobody used that strategy for decades. And then recently with sub two and everything—it becomes popular again because rates went up and nobody wants to originate a new loan. They want to grab your loan or mine at two or three percent instead of paying six or eight.

So these plays in the playbook are these tools like they always work. They just, some are appropriate for specific times in the market and more appropriate for other times. But I think a lot of people just go, well, now's not a good time. And it's like, well, no, you just got to approach the market knowing what market you're in.

Seth: When I think back to when I got into land, it was so, so easy to buy land for such a cheap price. I often find myself thinking back on those days, like, "Man, I should have doubled down and just done way more." Of course, it was harder to sell, but I could buy really easily. And then go to like the 2021 era when it's like, "Man, stuff sold so fast and for so much, like I wish I would have doubled down."

Makes me wonder about today. What do you think is that thing right now that we're all missing? Like, it's so nice in this way right now. We should have doubled down right now. Anything come to mind?

Travis: Yes. Holding. So we do something now with subdivides. We sold so many properties and we were working on velocity and just moving them quick. I mean, weeks, not even months—just flip, flip, flip in the beginning. And there's areas where values are 3x what they were 10 or 11 years ago when I was working these cheaper markets. Values have doubled and tripled.

And what if I just held some of these instead of flipped everything? And that's kind of what is common with time if we look—yeah, we have these little corrections for a couple of years here and there, but things just continue to go up. Up and up and up over time if we hold long enough.

So for me, that's what we do now is like with a subdivide. We'll subdivide a property, a parent parcel into five children parcels. Now, I got to sell some cash to get my money back. And then I'm going to sell some others with seller financing because I want payments and interest income. And then I'm going to hold one.

So if every subdivide people did, they held one child parcel through the course of the next decade, you just would have this incredible portfolio of land holdings. And I think that's the thing is sometimes, and especially more when I see it happens is when somebody actually transitions from their job to full-time land investor, they need all that income. They're living off of it. So you're cannibalizing the business.

But I tell people that have these really nice, six-figure W-2 jobs and they run a nice land flipping company in parallel—you don't have to flip everything and pay taxes. Like some of these would be really good buy and hold for you. So I think the buy and hold is overlooked because we always approach it through the lens of being flippers. But if you just buy and hold these properties, the values just go up.

We have properties in Montana that we've owned for 20 years. And it's like, even like one in an area where I would have never guessed values are what they are. They're 4X what I ever thought. I thought we were at our peak a long time ago. And they're just long-term properties, buy-and-holds.

And so it's just inevitable with time, these values go up. Yes, the dollar went down in the process, but I think people sleep on the buy and hold because it was kind of hand-to-mouth when you're flipping and trying to feed yourself. But if you're in a position where it's a dual income and you see something that you think you're getting a heck of a deal on or values will certainly go up, I think that's the one people miss out on.

That's a common a theme when you talk to older people, what do they wish for? And it's like, oh, I wish I had bought this back then. And then I wish I had held this.

And that's me with a lot of our rentals. Every rental we ever sold, I now wish I still owned. So that would be my tip is if you can make it work somehow is look at buy and hold versus flip, flip, flip.

Seth: That's really interesting, man. I'm glad you brought that up. It's almost kind of reminds me, I'm not a poker expert at all. I can hardly play it. But I've heard this thing with poker players and even stock market investors, there's certain things you can do to kind of hedge your bets. So like, it doesn't guarantee you're going to win, but like, if you do this habitually every time, like you are more likely to come out ahead than if you don't do this.

That reminds me of that a little bit.

Travis: It's kind of like tax liens. I don't love it as that's the model. But now that like, and when I was like looking at, Hey, my next year, how's this, you know, going to affect my business? I didn't realize, you know, 10, 11 years ago, I would still own a land company. And this is what we'd be doing as an occupation. Well, if I did, I would have been buying these tax liens, not for the purpose of getting the interest, but if people don't pay in three or four years, I get the property, right?

We kind of look at things on a longer time horizon than we used to when it was just, we were looking at flipping and looking at flipping in the next three to six months. Now I kind of look at things for more like longer term and more wealth building than just revenue generating, right?

Seth: So we’re getting to the end here. I'm curious, you get interviewed like this from time to time on other podcasts. When you get interviewed like this, or when you listen to other interviews with other land investors about this business, what's something that you think people talk about too much? And what's one thing you think they don't talk enough about?

Travis: I think a lot of the time, especially if somebody is not doing a lot of guest appearances, it's kind of like, "Hey, this is my opportunity to shine or flex." So I think people kind of like, there's a lot of boasting. There's a lot of posturing. It's vanity metrics, right?

But I think people don't share kind of like the day-to-day or like what would you do different? That's a great question. And like, you don't learn anything from what goes right, you know? It's kind of like, "Hey, what would you do different?" So I think talking about helping people, prevent making mistakes, or stepping on those landmines is really invaluable.

And for me, that's where I started was podcast. I absolutely love podcasts. When I used to have a job, there were only two things I liked about it: I had an IT department—I could just call and they would come into my office and fix anything. Now when you're on your own, you're your own IT department.

The other thing was, although I dreaded the commute, what I didn't realize was how much I enjoyed listening to podcasts. I can remember so many times sitting in the parking lot, squeezing every last minute out of that lunch hour, that break, because I wanted to hear what was next on the podcast.

So for me, I think a lot of the times we just hit the surface stuff, especially the shorter podcasts. That's why it's nice you do a longer podcast—there's an opportunity to kind of ask a second level question or even drill down to that deeper level versus just hitting the surface. So kind of, “what's working now? And like, what would you do differently?” I think those are kind of the questions versus like "how many deals" and "how big's the team." Some of these things, people are impressed by it, but it doesn't paint the full picture, the behind the scenes are the real stuff.

There's just a lot of posturing that occurs. And I think as you get older too, that stuff matters less in your forties than it did in your twenties type of thing. So it's more like, hey, I want to really get to know you. I want to really know about your business versus just hitting the surface.

This is a good time set to share with you. I love podcasts. That's kind of our next thing. I'm interested in not just land—I'm a fanatic, we love land, we talk land all day long—but I have other interests too. For me, an entrepreneur, our kids are in travel sports, they're all really active in sports. So like athletes, I work a ton with agents and stuff.

That's what we're actually launching—a podcast in the next couple months. And that's what it's going to be geared towards. Although land will be like a big tent pole holding up the tent, it's really more going to be about interviewing entrepreneurs. It's going to be interviewing investors. It's going to be interviewing athletes. We've got a number of friends and family and some of the kids' coaches that used to be former World Series champions and pros.

I talk land and I talk land nonstop, but I also have all these other interests and other businesses and entrepreneurs. And that's going to be kind of my opportunity. And hey, this is your formal invite too. I'm going to send you the link because I'd love to have you on. You have your own entrepreneurial story as you were able to leave a job and start a really successful business.

But that's kind of, that's what I asked myself, same thing. Like if I'm interviewing people, how do I go deep? I was talking with my wife about this. She's like, "We're not doing a three-hour Joe Rogan." You can't—no, you don't get three or four hours per person. And I'm like, "Okay, but I don't want 15 minutes." I want an hour. We want to cover some real substance.

Seth: What's this podcast going to be called?

Travis: The King Show Podcast. And it'll be entrepreneurs, athletes, and then investors and agents.

Seth: Awesome. I don't know if that's going to be out there by the time this podcast goes live, but I will retroactively go back and add a link to it in the show notes, retipster.com/199. That's going to be awesome. I can't wait to hear that.

Travis: I'm going to send you the calendar link this afternoon to get you booked as one of the first guests on the show. It's something I'm excited about. And it's more just like, it's something I love, it's passionate. I really enjoy it.

The book, same thing. Five years from now, I just want to be writing books and doing a podcast. That's kind of where I'm working towards. We've put in a lot of work on the front in this last decade.

Seth: Yeah. You can make entire careers out of that. I'm sure you could do it if you want to. Cool, man.

Well, if people want to work with you or just check in and say hi or do anything, is there like one or two places they should go to check out what you got going on?

Travis: I think TravisKing.com is kind of the hub. That's where everything from—hey, we'll probably post this, people are going to go watch it on your website, they're going to listen to it on the podcast, but we're probably going to repost it over there on ours. So that's kind of the hub where we've got everything from tools, resources, programs, training.

Probably going to bomb you with like a free book offer if you go there, probably going to get a pop-up immediately. You know how that works, Seth, right? We're probably going to try to get you to check out the book we talked about earlier, but TravisKing.com is always the easiest.

Seth: Awesome. That was good.

Thanks, Travis. Thank you for everything you do. I mean, you're such a great person to have in the room. You're full of so many good ideas. We actually got to hang out earlier this year at REWBCON for just a little bit at that breakfast. And man, it's just a pleasure to know you and just to hang out with you and to have your input on anything.

So you're a great guy. Appreciate all you do for the industry. And again, if people want to check out what Travis has going on, TravisKing.com. Be sure to check out the show notes, retipster.com/199.

And, Travis, thanks again, man.

Travis: Hey, thanks Seth. I appreciate you. Thanks for having me again. Thrilled to be on.

Seth: Likewise. Anytime.