Seth: Hey everybody, how's it going? Welcome to the REtipster podcast. This is Seth Williams and you're listening to episode 242.

So back in March of 2021, Jaren and I sat down with a land investor named Luis and that conversation always kind of stuck with me. He was regularly closing deals through assignments and double closings without tying up much of his own money.

And at the time, he was running a high-volume land business, sending out thousands of offers, juggling dozens of contracts, and somehow managing to move deals quickly, often in 60 days or less. And he had a full-time work ethic that helped him push through a lot of rejection and uncertainty.

And that was over four years ago. Since then, the land market has shifted in big ways. Interest rates, competition, and new technology have changed how this business works in a lot of markets.

So I wanted to bring Luis back on the show to find out what's changed, what's working for him now, and what he's learned since then. So Luis, welcome back. How's it going?

Luis: Good, man. Thanks, Seth, for having me. You know, we met in Colorado, which was amazing seeing all those investors and meeting you in person. You're much taller than what I thought.

Seth: Yeah, I hear that a lot. Yeah.

Luis: So yeah, the land space has changed so much since 2021, since we spoke. I still love double closing assignment fees because it lets me try the market. I like to try the market.

I'm a guy that like, even if I know the market, I like to try. I like to send it to my buyers. So that allows me the 60 days that I have under contract allows me to make sure it's a good deal or not.

In my seven years, it's going to be seven years in February next year, flipping land. I have never lost money. I can count with one hand how many deals I made a thousand dollars or less, because they were not the greatest, but at least I didn't lose money because I made sure to try to sell it before I had to buy.

And that's still my main goal for like 95% of my properties.

Seth: 95% of your properties, you are either doing a double closing or assignment. Is that what you're saying or?

Luis: I'm trying.

Seth: Trying, okay.

Luis: I'm trying because right now, it's not as easy to sell land as it was before. The whole thing with inflation, prices that are higher. So it's a little bit harder for you to get a contract signed with the seller.

Right now, it's easier than the last year because I think a lot of people are broke. They don't have money. So they want to sell the land to you. But at the same time, your buyers don't have money set.

So you're like, you have to advertise better. You have to get better photos and you have to keep grinding. You have to offer seller finance.

So during that 60 days, I'm able to see if this is a good land or not. And there are things after you get it under contract that you get to know, right?

Because I'm not doing my due diligence before because it's a waste of time, in my opinion. I'm doing my due diligence after that guy signed the contract with me.

Seth: Let's say you go 60 days and you haven't sold the thing yet, but you've seen some interest. Like it's looking promising.

Or I don't know if you ever go 90 days on these contracts or if you ever push for further than that, but is there a point at which you decide it hasn't sold yet, but it's worth my time to actually buy this thing and take title and take the risk on it? How do you mentally go through that decision and decide whether to do that?

Luis: There's a few ways that you can do on the buying side because you have the seller with you signing the contract. Like last week, I had a seller that I had it for 60 days and I couldn't sell the land.

And I kept pushing him, kept pushing him. And I want an extension, I asked for him. And he's like, I'll give you an extension if you give me 1500 earnest money deposit.

But in that meantime, that I was talking to him, trying to extend, and it was already extending, right? I mean, I was able to find a buyer.

So I found a buyer and I secured myself $5,000 cash in my account because I held a little longer. So there's strategies. You can cancel, you can price drop, you can ask for extension.

You know, you can tell them, Hey, listen, I'm not the best fit for your property because of this, but I can offer it on the MLS. I put it for sale. I specialize in land.

Would you be okay if I make five, $10,000 in this deal? And most of them were like, yeah, sure. I'll be okay with that as long as I get this property sold.

So then I signed a new contract, which allows me to sell their property on the MLS and every single place. Because right now, before when we spoke in 2021, Seth, I could put every single property on Zillow. And Zillow was the best.

For sell by owner, it was the best thing to sell land. But since then, you can't. You cannot post a property for sell by owner land on Zillow.com. So you have to own the property.

And after you own the property, you have to use what I call brokerless MLS fee, right? You use a person to list the property, don't pay them a fee. And then it goes to MLS, Zillow, Redfin Trulia but that's after you have it in your name.

And so that's why a lot of times I'm buying the land too. But I know that when I was in 2021, I was cash on cash, right? Trying to get as much cash possible.

So I didn't have the money to buy all the pieces of land that I had under contract. So the best option was to do double close. So that's how I like double close.

And it's a little bit harder to sell the land. Like I said, right now, if you have an infill lot, like a perfect infill lot, they go fast. Like Arizona, Tennessee, Florida, Nevada, they go fast.

But if you have a desert square, which I have some because I just got it for an amazing price, it's harder to sell. You have to offer seller finance, but still a good deal. So I just tried the market, Seth.

And if the market's telling me that's a good thing and I review the data over and over again, I'm like, okay, I'm going to use my funds and I'm going to buy it.

Seth: When you say that thing about the infill lots selling fast, is that kind of dependent on the market? Or like, are you just saying they just always sell fast across the board no matter what?

Luis: Always sell fast across the board. If you have water, electricity available, maybe sometimes sewer. But if there's the houses all around next to it, it's much easier to sell.

Seth: Are you a licensed realtor?

Luis: Still in California, yes.

Seth: How big of a role does that play in your business that you do in California? I'm assuming you buy and sell land in California, right?

Luis: Yes. Yes, I do. I like California a lot for land. I have a few escrows right now. I feel that I'm buying. I feel that I'm selling.

So I still make good money, but I have to disclose that I'm a real estate agent to them. That's not a hard thing to do. You know, you just tell, just writing the contract.

You don't have to tell them verbally, Hey, I'm an agent. No, it's in the contract. So if they want to read it, fine. If they don't want to read it, I still do deals here in California as a realtor.

Last year I did like two homes that I sold last year, another two. So that's why I keep my license because there's consistent cash coming from it, consistent commissions.

But I don't hustle to get the deals. It's just people that know me, and I probably spend 2% of my time on that. My bread and butter, it's vacant land.

And to be honest with you, if you want to just be an investor, you do not need a license. You don't need to be a realtor. I would suggest people don't go that route because there's too many, super saturated, competitive. If you're not on top, you're not going to win.

Seth: Do you ever list vacant lots for sale on behalf of other land investors? Or is it just like a house or two here and there when it comes up?

Luis: A house or two. I don't do land because most people, when they come to me with vacant land to list, the price is too little. And I'm like, I'm not going to waste my time for that tiny commission. So I say no.

Seth: So I was talking with Mason McDonald in episode 239. He became a licensed agent earlier this year. He had a lot of compelling reasons for why he did this. And it just clicked for me when I heard him explaining how he works that into his business.

Because one of the ways he can go about this is you can kind of enter the conversation with the land investor cash low offer. But if they say no to that, he's got this backup. How about I list the property for you? Like I'll just list it as your realtor.

And this is kind of based on the assumption that he's going after bigger deals. So not like cheap, into a lot, desert square type stuff, like very substantial deals.

Have you ever thought about doing that? Like where you could intentionally go after bigger stuff with the back end idea of, hey, if they say no, I can just list the thing for them.

Luis: I did. I actually listened to the podcast. I met him in Colorado. He was a nice guy.

Seth: You're both there. I forgot about that.

Luis: Yeah. He was super smart, but I have been in the business for way longer as a realtor than him. And I understand where he's coming from. You know, being a realtor, it's tough because you're representing someone else.

And then if you get an offer that's a little bit lower or something like not creative, your sellers might say no, and all your time is wasted. So that's why I really don't want to focus on that because I like the land. I like to buy it for myself, represent myself, and then sell it for myself.

So that's the best way because I don't want to like make those good deals for someone else and then I have to get paid a percentage of it. Because that's the way you do it. You know, you represent somebody, you're going to do the same amount of work and somebody's going to get the majority of the profit.

So that's when I do that. That's when I'm like, Hey, this is not the best deal. But if you want to list it with me, which I hardly say, because I'll just tell them, Hey, I'm not interested in this property.

Maybe you should list it or maybe you should do a lower price because right now the area where you're at is not selling. So I use my knowledge in there and I'm helping that person, but that's when I use it.

So it's really not my main focus.

Seth: Do you ever buy out of state land these days?

Luis: All the time. All the time. 98% of my properties I have never seen with my own eyes. Never seen. The only time I see them is when I'm doing subdivisions.

And right now I have a subdivision in Arizona and of course I drove there and I fell in love with Arizona because it was like 75 degrees in December and I'm like, man, I like it in Arizona. But I have not seen like the 98% of my properties.

I send my photographer over there. He takes the picture, the video. He walks it. And then that's where I'm going to use the information to see if it's a good deal or not.

Because before I could just say, because I was in California, I like California, but I knew that it's too slow here. It's the government's here, too many regulations. So that's why I expanded on other states, out of state, because it's much easier.

And I can get land cheaper. But you're going to get the deal cheaper. It means I'm going to sell it cheaper. And there's more people in other states buying land than here in California.

So I have more chance of selling that piece of land in Arizona, Nevada, New Mexico, Tennessee than here in California where the price is high and people are leaving California.

Seth: Just to be clear, are you still physically living in California right now? Or did you move somewhere?

Luis: No, I still live here. I'm a California guy.

Seth: You are. Okay, okay, okay. Yeah. So you're doing the normal land investor thing, just working remotely. I mean, you're not physically going there to manage this stuff. You're doing it remotely.

Luis: Remotely. I think that's the best way. I think I have more chance of getting good deals with not having to drive eight hours to go check a property. I'm going to close this deal without even looking at it in person.

That's going to save me eight hours of my time and, you know, maybe $100 of gas. So that's the efficiency that I have.

Seth: Just out of curiosity, because I know California is not like the easiest state in the country to do this in. Have you ever considered moving somewhere just for tax reasons or where it's like an easier state to live? Or does it have to be California for family reasons or something?

Luis: I'm planning to move to Texas. So I will be moving to Texas. I'm going to have to leave California because I'm going to start making more and more money. And if I'm getting taxed, after you make $200,000 a year, you're going to get taxed on California, state tax, 13%.

So if I make $500,000, that's a lot of money that I'm going to give to the state. So I'm planning to move to Texas, Arizona, Florida. I have not decided yet, but tax purposes for sure is going to help a lot because right now I'm at the highest tax bracket, you know?

So I have to pay a lot in taxes. So if I move to those states, I think I will pay less taxes. But yeah, I will be moving out of California sooner or later.

Seth: Yeah, it's an interesting thing because I live in Michigan right now. And that's another state that people just don't want to do business in because it's just not an easy state. Most people go to like Florida or Texas or what have you because it's just way easier and taxes are way lower.

But I was actually just talking to somebody in person the other day and they were like, honestly, you know, the state I live in, I pay my taxes and it's just not that big of a deal. And like, you get so many other benefits of being here.

So I mean, it depends on how big of a deal it is to you. Like if it actually makes sense to uproot your life and move your family or whatever just for tax savings.

But it sounds like it does for you. So I mean, that's pretty awesome. The other thing about you, you mentioned in the last episode is you come from a family of entrepreneurs, if I'm not mistaken. Is that right?

Luis: Yes, my father. So that always allowed me to be very strong minded. My dad, he owned the soccer league in East LA. I don't know if you know, that neighborhood is pretty ghetto in Los Angeles, pretty tough.

And he made it. He made it. So that always inspired me to do something to try. You know, he tried soccer league. He was able to build soccer fields and that league was making him great money.

So that inspired me. And my brother's a contractor. So I used them in my subdivision to build roads and curbs and do a lot of stuff. So I kind of grew up with, you know, the business family. So it's always allowed me to try.

And he's the one that told me, Hey, you like real estate. Try land. And I said no at first because I was like, what? People are not going to pay. There's no houses on them.

But after I tried and I got my first cash buyer, I got my first deal, I was selling it, and I made $16,000 on that first deal. I was like, this is real. So I think it was my dad that guided me into the land business.

But at the same time, you know, I know there's a lot of people that in their families don't have somebody that knows business. And I was lucky. I was lucky because I saw it in person how my dad was able to make that happen.

But now I'm helping my brother because my brother used to work for like, you know, electrical company. But then I'm like, you need to go and try contracting.

So now he has his own company and he's making way more money than he was before, you know, as an employee. So I'm giving my time too to my family, my brother to show them, Hey, this is real. This is how you do it.

You have the connections. I have the connections of the land. You have the connections of like contractors and laborers. So that's been a good relationship.

Seth: For sure. When you talk about subdivisions and that kind of thing, does that basically mean buying infill lots or just infill acreage and splitting it up into small more marketable parcels? Like what does that mean? What's the general profile of land you look for when you do that?

Luis: So basically I want to have a lot of money for those. I want to have a lot of money in the bank account because it's pretty like a big chunk. So if I have that big chunk of money, I'll go try to find the property that has 20 to 40 lots, 20 acres to 40 acres or more.

I asked them to split it. They can split it. Everything's already there. The person says, okay, here's the price. And then I offered a lower price than what he's telling me, hoping that I can get it for that price.

Then the next thing after I get the approval for them to split, I start hitting up builders. I start hitting up the builders like, Hey, I'm going to have this many lots here in Buckeye, Arizona. And there's 40 lots.

You want to be part of this? And I think 10 homebuilders that reached out to me, and most of them say yes. So I know that I'm going to be able to sell those lots to the homebuilders. So I'll make the money that I need.

And the average profit that I make on a subdivision is $6,000 to $15,000 per lot. So imagine you have 40 lots times 15, you know, $15,000. You're making great money on those specific subdivision.

But at the same time, it's risky because it takes time. The time that it takes for them to build the roads, everything. And then for you to sell it, it could be sometimes years, right? It could be a long time. So that's the risk on them.

So people that are starting out, I don't recommend them subdivisions because you could tie your money. And then there's a lot of things that come up in a subdivision that you have to like be careful and hire the right people.

And if you don't hire the right people, you can mess up your whole thing. But to answer your question, Seth, I like to have 40 to 100 lots on a subdivision.

Seth: So is it fair to say that like, your focus is infill lots, like that's the core of your business? But when you're doing subdivisions, you're going for bigger acreage properties in kind of the path of development, you could say?

Luis: Yes, path of development. The one that I have right now in Buckeye, Arizona, which I'm working on it. I'm about to close it and sign the purchase agreement and do all those stuff this coming month, if everything goes well, December.

It took me eight months, eight months to find the right subdivisions. So eight months of me going and meeting a broker, telling the owners, and it was so tough. But finally this guy said yes.

And hopefully everything goes well because we're about to send in the purchase agreement. So it took me eight months to find it. But once I found it, the big money comes in.

So when I do infill lots, the smaller properties, that's for the cash on cash. That's for payroll. That's for like making sure my business is running right. When I hit the subdivision, that's where I'm going to make that huge chunk of $500,000, $600,000, you know?

And that's basically like your whole year profit in one project. So that's why I love them. But they're harder to come by. And to get them under contract takes a little bit longer too, you know?

Seth: You mentioned something about the capital you need for that. Can you give us like a ballpark idea of, I don't know, like either you don't have to necessarily say how much you're paying for this thing, but like ballpark.

What does somebody need to do a proper subdivision deal? Are we talking seven figures? Are we talking six figures? Like what's it take?

Luis: Depending on the location you're in. So if you're in Buckeye, Arizona, which is a hot market right now in Arizona, because Phoenix is growing, you could be looking at $1.5 million, $2 million purchase price. Because the average price per lot is like $75,000 to $120,000 on average.

So if you get the infill lot for 40 lots, you're going to be spending a lot of money. But if you go to New Mexico, which I'm also looking at, you can get it for cheaper. You might get 40 lots for like half a million dollars or $700,000.

But then on the purchase price, you're going to be looking to put down at least 20%. So you're going to, you know, do the math there.

Seth: You got to have serious cash to play that game. You got to have some money. You got to have some money because if you don't have money, I think it's hard for you to negotiate with this seller, right?

Luis: If you tell them, Hey, I'm going to close all cash. And the guy's like, perfect. I'm going to just, you know, work with Luis. And then I know that I'm going to have a better shot at that purchase agreement than somebody that's going to say, Hey, I'm going to do seller finance with you.

I'm going to, you know, I'm going to try to double close and then try to find a buyer on my 60 days. No, those other guys not going to work with you. They're going to work with me because I have money already.

I'm going to close cash. And that's another tip in there that I found out in the past where if you don't have the liquidity, you're not going to be able to close on bigger deals. So that's another thing that I learned too.

Seth: Yeah. You make a really valid point. Like if you're not if you don't have the cash on hand, like you really can't just play the subdivision game, at least not unless you have a partner or something who has cash.

But it's kind of like that thing. It's like you got to know which race you're in. And if you don't have that money, well, go after the smaller stuff where you can do well without that and just try to accumulate more money before you think about going in that direction.

Luis: Exactly. Yeah. The smaller deals, you know, there's still money to be made and you don't need a million dollars in your account to close deals and to get a big profit, you know, and that's what I did.

I started with the small deals and I accumulated and accumulated. And even though I didn't save a lot of money, I was still learning. I was still learning the business. I was still learning how to close deals.

And right now those skills are so refined that now every lead that comes into me, there's a big shot that I'm going to close the deal. Unless I don't want the deal, you know what I mean?

Seth: This might not be a fair question and you can feel free to tell me to shut up. But like per year, what is the ballpark you're making these days? Like, what does your business revenue wise look like on an annual basis?

Luis: This year I did like $200,000 pure revenue, pure profit, pure profit. Now I'm starting to see how I'm going to be doing a little better because I sold two deals in the last two weeks.

So I can see it going to like $50,000, $60,000 or the next four weeks. So I think I'm going to average like $260,000, $270,000 for this year. Last year was $185,000. So I have a way better year this year. I didn't have subdivisions.

So if I get the subdivision, I'm going to like triple that number. And I would keep at least 60% to 70% of my savings now. I'm I'm living in California, which expensive already, but I'm going to keep 70% of whatever I make in savings.

Seth: I'm just curious, like at the level you're at now, how much is that kind of relative to what you could be making at a W2? Or were you ever in a W2 job? And if so, like, what was that and how does this compare?

Luis: So I worked for Tesla. I was a service advisor in Tesla. And I was only making like $30,000, $35,000 a year. So like right now it's a different, different position, different life.

Because I used to be, I'm always like trying to hustle, but I was focusing on somebody else's dream. And then right now I'm focusing on my dream and my wife's dream, our dreams together. And obviously we're making better money.

But the thing, Seth, I think a lot of people get hung up like on just making like $70,000, $80,000 a year. And then they stay at that W2. And that's what keeps me motivated every single day is what if I make a million dollars in profit?

Then I'm going to be able to experience a different life, buy a house, get houses for rent, do whatever I want, travel more, and have a good life. I believe in work-life balance, but at the same time, I believe working super hard and accumulating money so you can have options is super key.

So right now I don't have money to really do real estate. I have a lot of money because I'm trading cash, but to build a good portfolio, I'm doing notes right now. I'm doing seller finance where I'm keeping notes.

But I want to build a portfolio. If let's say I get my subdivision and I make a million dollars, I'll be able to go and buy properties where I can build that portfolio. But right now I'm going on cash, cash, cash.

Because I'm going to be able to live the life that I want and my wife wants. That's it. It's different way. The W2 is consistent, right? Consistent money. Like my wife, she has a W2. She's not risk taker like me.

And I love that she gets a check every single two weeks, you know, consistent, consistent. And that allows me to take more risk and do what I want to do in the land business. But the money that you can make in land is unlimited, Seth.

So I know a lot of investors making a million dollars, $2 million, $5 million. So if those guys are making that, I'm like, I can make it too. I just need to keep building on it and keep working hard on it.

Seth: Man, I love that optimistic attitude and belief that you can just keep growing. But I guess I'm curious, like knowing what you make now and knowing what you could make, like say if you made a million or a couple million, like what would be different in your life?

Like what could you do that you can't do now? Because I got to think if you're making $200,000 a year in California, that's a pretty good income to enjoy life. Like what more would you be doing if you made like five times as much as that?

Luis: I mean, I think the best way for me to answer that is for me to have an option. Options, like if I want to work that day, I'm going to work. If I don't, I'm not, you know?

But the biggest thing for me is a travel, you know, like I don't travel as much because I'm grinding so much. And I think I will travel more. If I make a ton of money, I'll be able to buy my parents a house. So that will be cool.

A lot of my decisions come down like on how I can give back to my family because I love my family. So I think the motivation is I want to take care of them. I want to take care of my dad. I want to take care of my brother. My mom, I want to take care of her. My sister, I want to take care of her.

So I want to have that type of money where I could just like, Hey, here's $20,000 for you guys to go travel to Europe or go to Paris or something like that. You deserve it. And that's what keeps me motivated to like, I want to give them, I want to be able to give them a nice gift without like feeling or worrying about my bank account.

So that's the best way I can tell you, I want to help others. I want to be in a position where I can help others and like live on that spot where my wife's happy too, that when we go to dinner, I'm not like watching the pricing on the menu.

Like right now, I don't watch the pricing on the menu. So that's good. So I don't want to like think about money. Like if I'm getting charged $3 for this little tiny thing, I'm like, whatever, you know, it's included in there.

So I want to give money to my church. I want to give money to, you know, make them happy because they're helping other people. So that's why I want to keep making money because I feel that money brings happiness.

I don't know if you agree with that, but I feel like it helps you live a better life and your family and be able to support other people.

Seth: Yeah, I think I personally feel about that is I think money does to some extent buy happiness, like up to a certain level where like you're not worried about basic needs being met. You know, you have enough to eat. You're not wondering if you're going to be homeless or that kind of thing.

Because at that level, that stuff is just constant stress. So for sure money helps if you don't have it. But yeah, I think once you get above that, like there is a top of the pyramid where like more isn't necessarily going to make you happier or more fulfilled.

And there's other things that come into play that are more important, like your relationships and where you go to church and all this stuff. I mean, I think all that stuff that has nothing to do with money becomes more important.

You know, assuming that's all true. And I don't know if everybody would agree with that, but that seems to be what I've heard from people in like the real deep studies they've done around this. And kind of my own experience has kind of shown me that.

Luis: I think you're right, Seth. But I feel like money at the end of the day, if you have more, you can give more. And the more you give, the happier you can be. Because that's going to make you feel fulfilled.

At least for myself, I think it's going to make me feel more fulfilled. And honestly, if I have the option to work or not, I think I would work regardless.

Seth: Yeah. Now that we've been kind of like daydreaming for the past few minutes there, like, what is it going to take to get there? You know, like, yes, this big, huge subdivision you got going on is going to make a big difference in your life.

But what else do you have to do? Like, what's the next move for you? What systems you got to put in place? Like, how are you going to make that next leap and get over that hump?

Luis: I hired two VAs from the Philippines. One of them is super, super good. And she's helping me respond to buyers, respond to sellers. She's, you know, locking up deals for me.

And the other one I'm training to get with the other one, but that is super important because now I have more time. Like two weeks ago, I took a trip. I didn't check my phone. My VA was managing all the deals. And I came back and I'm like, man, it was a good, successful trip on the land side.

So hiring VAs are super important. Make sure you ask them if they know about land because there's so many VAs that know about land and they have their course that they take. So once I knew that, I was like, okay, I need to hire somebody that knows land.

And once I did that, my life changed because now she's bringing leads to me and I'm closing more deals because she does a better job than I do sometimes with the people. So VAs are super important. Systems and understanding technology.

So for example, right now I'm using, and I recommend anybody to start using like Slack. I added Slack to my life because that allows me to hire people, talk to them and then talk to each other. They know what's going on with this property and what's going on.

So it's a system that I created there. My CRM is using Podio right now. And I'm also building AI softwares and building systems that make my life more efficient. And that's the game changer. If you're not using AI yet, it's going to get you left behind.

Seth: When you talked about those VAs that you've hired, you said they went through training to know about land. Like, what is that? Like where did they take their course?

Luis: So there's a lot of courses out there. A lot of land investors have VAs. So a lot of them are in the Filipino community, which I'm lucky because I can speak Tagalog. So that's another way that I communicate. It's our language in the Philippines.

I don't know the name of the course, but she told me that she had a few courses under her belt. And then when I was interviewing her, I was like, okay, tell me what you know about land. And she knew. So she's been my VA for a few months now.

Seth: Got you. Okay. So, I mean, I'm assuming if somebody wanted to hire a VA, they would do that through the normal channels. They just got to ask them, do you know anything about land? Like what's your education on that?

Luis: Exactly. Yeah. And sometimes when you post it, they have to put like what they know about it, and they have all these notes. And then a lot of them say they know. And then once you interview them, you realize they don't know anything.

But there's a few that they know. So you got to do your due diligence on that, in my opinion. But the best thing to do is I post it on Facebook groups like REtipster, or I post it on one of the Facebook groups.

And then I say, Hey, I'm looking for a VA. A lot of people reach out to you. And I say, okay, give me your portfolio, give me your resume. And then once they give you the resume, look, look through it.

Don't just hire them. Look through it, see what they did. And if they have a successful past work, you can reach out to them too and ask them, Hey, how did the VA do? And if they say they do good, then I would hire them on.

Seth: When you talk about training somebody to use AI to do this stuff, are you referring to yourself being trained? Are you using ChatGPT or Claude or something like that? Or like who is doing what? Is somebody else training or are you training somebody else? How's that working?

Luis: I'm doing everything myself. I'll see a video out on Facebook. It's teaching me, Hey, you can do this and this. But usually I just get on the AI tool, which is mainly Claude or Perplexity and then I try things. I try to see if it can do it or not.

I'll give you an example. I'm having a subdivision. I did not know, Seth, Texas State Law 332. I had no idea. So I'm like, okay, I have to find a title company in Texas for the subdivision. And it's kind of tricky because this law is new.

So they have to, the title company has to know this law. They have to have like studied this law to be able to split it correctly. So I went to AI and I said, Hey, what's State Law 332? Tell me everything about it.

And then it broke it down. It's just like you have a professional consultant telling you, but it's so fast. That's the best part. I mean, in seconds you have the answer. So I know what I'm looking for and what I'm going to say to the attorney.

But at the same time, I need to find the attorney that does it. So I asked the AI, I'm like, okay, now that I know, give me a list of attorneys that have used this law in Texas. And it gave me like three websites that I can go check out.

So then I go to those websites and start calling them. And then, you know, it's just everything that I have to do daily, I get better ideas through AI.

Seth: One curious thing, if you're talking to an AI like ChatGPT or Claude, however you talk to this thing, like what is the prompt you give this bot so that it knows who you are and what you do and why you're asking?

And how specific do you got to get with it for it to really understand what you need and give you the right information? Or do you just like type in a general question and it works?

Luis: Usually I just type a simple, easy prompt. But what I did, I created a project on the AI where I'm like, I'm a land investor and I do this and I do that.

So what that does, it saves the conversation and the memory. So every time I ask a question, it already knows my business model. So when I ask something, it caters to me specifically. So that's what I did. Creating projects on like Claude has projects that you can create.

So I think projects are super key. And then you can do automation, which is awesome. That's another thing that I've been building using Zapier. I use Zapier which is an automation software where you can integrate with Google sheets and you can integrate it with Gmail, with Slack, with everything.

Like for example, when I get an email about somebody asking about a property that was sent from Zillow. Zapier catches that and automatically fills out my CRM. So now I don't have to worry about missing leads or missing buyers.

And it just all falls into my CRM and then I can close those deals.

Seth: Wow, that's pretty cool. Now your CRM is Podio. Podio. Okay. And you're using that in tandem with Zapier then?

Luis: Yes, sir.

Seth: Okay. So is there a cost to that? Like do you got to pay for Zapier?

Luis: Yes, sir. I think it's $30 a month, but it's definitely worth it.

Seth: I know when we talked to you like four years ago, you mentioned Pebble as being like you were using that a lot. Are you still using Pebble these days?

Luis: I still use Pebble, but I upgraded to Landflow which is the new Pebble. And Landflow has been great. I love Landflow. And let me tell you what I do on Landflow.

I use Landflow to verify my data, make sure it's the right owner and it's the mail that I sent it, they received it or not. So if I send them the owner and it was sent back to me, undeliverable, on Landflow it'll tell you that it was sent back, It was undeliverable.

So I skip trace the owner. I pay for the skip trace through Landflow. Like 25 cents per lead. So it's not that much.

Seth: Really? I think it's way more expensive on Data Tree. That's awesome.

Luis: Yes, sir. Yeah, Landflow, I think it's the best data provider that I know. I tested a few and Landflow is the best that I have used. And he has a very good API that I use it to, again, to automate some stuff or to compare sales comps.

It can do all of that for you. It's another software that I love. So I send a thank you to Dave because he's been helping me a lot, you know?

Seth: Big time, big time. I mean, it's fascinating how much the technology has changed in just a few years. Like I know we went through a very long period where it didn't change at all.

And then AI comes on the scene in 2023 or so and just everything went crazy. Like all this stuff is a no-brainer to use where you can integrate this stuff and automate things. It's a really exciting time to be in land.

Luis: Yeah, excited. I'm super excited. And I think land is so open. You know, everybody's looking at other markets. If you look at the land market, there's potential. There's always potential. There's money to be made.

Seth: Definitely. So would you say your biggest challenge in the business these days is just capital to buy deals? Or is it something else? Like what's the biggest bottleneck in your business right now?

Luis: I think capital for sure. But the biggest thing that I get hung up on is pricing. Right now, pricing is different. So when I send my offers last year, I sent a lot and I got maybe two, three, four deals accepted per a thousand mail piece out.

And my goal is like five to seven per a thousand. I'm getting there because I've been adjusting my pricing. But the best way that I've been doing is to do price tier. So I'm doing now three tier pricing where I send, you know, price tier one, which I know I'm going to make good money because I'm offering lower.

And then price tier two is my middle where I know that I'm going to do it double close and still make a good chunk. And then price tier three is where I'm breaking even. I just want the deal because I want to try the market. I want to see what the market's telling me.

So price tier three, even though I make a little, I'm making a thousand, $2,000 is still a good deal in my book because I didn't lose money. And I have a chance to either keep it for myself or give it to another investor and create some type of deal because I know I'm going to buy from him later.

So pricing is the most important thing that I have worked on. And I'm still trying to get better at. Because it's changed from 2021 to 2024. So now I'm having to modify that and I'm getting better and better at it.

Seth: Okay. So it's interesting. You mentioned that three tier pricing thing. So I've actually never heard about that. Can you just explain it again? Like if I'm sending out, say a thousand offers and maybe this is a bad example, maybe you wouldn't do this, but let's just, I've got a thousand people I want to mail to.

I'm not going to do three tiers within that thousand, am I? Like what does that look like? Like how many offers do I do? And what kind of numbers do I use?

Luis: So I use ParcelStream to send my offers. And basically what I do is that I build like a list. I go to Landflow. I download like, let's say 5,000 pieces of data.

And after I do that, there's like, you know, tier pricing. So I'm going to price it, tier one, tier two, tier three. So let's say 30% is tier one, 40% is tier two, and then the rest is tier three.

Seth: Okay. So what does that mean? Like those are just different property categories or is it that you're deliberately offering less for tier one? Like what is that?

Luis: So lower. Basically. What I'm doing is like, let's say I pull a list, Seth, and the average fair market value is $20,000, right? So I'm like, okay, this list has pretty good average. But I want to send my tier pricing on different amounts.

So on the tier one pricing, I know I'm offering the lowest, which is probably like, let's say 5,000. On the tier two, I'm going to offer $8,000. And on tier three, I'll offer $12,000.

So what happens is, is that I know when I offer $12,000, I don't have enough margin to make a big profit. But at the same time, if that person accepts that offer for $12,000, I know that that's a hot piece of land.

So let's go try to sell it right now. And if I sell it for $22,000 or $25,000, it's still $12,000 profit, which is huge, you know? So that's how I'm using price tiering.

Seth: So the person accepting the $12,000 offer in that case, they don't know about the five or the eight. Like they don't see that, right? They just see one thing?

Luis: Yes, they see one offer.

Seth: Okay. So out of these 5,000 offers that you're going to send, how many of them are you sending tier three versus tier two versus tier one?

Luis: So I'll use a list to tier one. Another list to tier two. And another list to tier three.

Seth: Okay. So these are the same properties, but you're just sending three different offers over like a period of a couple months or something?

Luis: Yes, sir. So let's say this week I sent a thousand offer on tier one. A month later, I'm going to send them again on tier two. And then two months later, I'm going to send them on tier three.

Seth: Okay, got you.

Luis: So after six months, it's called the spray and pray. If by six months, nobody replied. I'll just delete those and then move on to the next list because I know that they're not interested or I'm not at the right price point.

Seth: Okay. That's super interesting. I don't know if I ever heard anybody systematically do that.

Luis: And it's called the spray and pray. Like I see some softwares. Some people are using texting which I think it's also a good strategy. But the good old mail method is still working.

Seth: For sure. How do you know where to send your offers? Like, what market do you go after? What criteria do you use to decide where you're going to invest your time and money on marketing?

Luis: So as I told you, I tried the market using AI. So I'll go to Claude and I'll tell them, Hey, what markets are the best for vacant land in the past six to eight months? And it'll give me like a group of like 20 markets that are performing well.

And I'll verify that. I'll go to Landflow, I'll go to Zillow and see if it's actually the truth or not. And then once I figure that out, I make sure it's less than one acre because I don't want to focus on five, 10, 20 acres because I'm having trouble selling land right now on five, 10, 20 acres. I want less than one acre.

Once I get the less than one acre, I make sure it's close to a metro area. Once I get that, then I'm like, okay, this looks good. So I buy the list, or I get the list for free on Landflow, download it.

And then I'm seeing if those properties have 50 to 100 comparable sales in the last six to eight months. If they do have a lot of sales, I'm like, okay, I'm going to buy here. And I'm going to send out mail to them because I know that it's going to get sold.

Because if there's so much transactions happening over there, when I get it, when I buy it, there's a big chance of me getting it sold.

Seth: Okay, yeah. So that's super interesting. So after having sent all these offers and seen the ones that came back, have you discovered any certain cities or counties that just are like killing it for you? Like where are your top places right now?

Luis: My top place is Arizona. I like Arizona, Phoenix, Tucson, that area. I like it. Tennessee, still good. Not as strong. I think Nashville area and I think Knoxville is still pretty good. Florida, even though the insurance is going up like crazy, there's still demand for land.

So Florida, specifically Ocala, Tampa Bay area. Those are the areas that I'm buying. Nevada still pretty good. New Mexico, now New Mexico is a little bit harder to sell. That's on my side.

Seth: What about California? You mentioned earlier you still buy and sell in California sometimes. Like are you actually making offers for California or are these just inquiries that come from elsewhere?

Luis: Great question. So I stopped sending offers to California around a year ago because I think their asking prices is always high. People in California asking price is way higher. So I was not getting responses because I'm offering 50 cents on the dollar or 30 cents on the dollar and they want 80 cents on the dollar.

So now what I do is I do the Google PPC ads. So I do marketing on Google. And when people search like sell my land fast, sometimes they go to my page, they fill out the information, and then I give them an offer.

And those ones I'm taking a little bit more. So I'm taking maybe five to $10,000. But I'm doing the marketing on California specifically just on Google right now.

Seth: Gotcha. So when you say 50 cents on the dollar versus 80 cents on the dollar, what dollar are we talking about? Like, is that the market value? Like the retail market value?

Luis: Market value, yes, the fair market value.

Seth: On how are you defining that? Like, what kind of comps are you looking at to identify that?

Luis: So I'm going to Zillow and I'm seeing the average sold price. I'm going to Landflow and seeing the last comparable sales in the last six to eight months. And I'm seeing a range. And I'm seeing what they're asking on Zillow right now, the asking price.

So everything has to like come together where I'm like, okay, this is the fair market value because all these sold for this and all these are asking for that.

Seth: Yeah. Interesting. And out of curiosity, when you're using AI for like it to tell you, Hey, these are the hot markets. Are you looking at where, like, what was the value of land parcels sold in the last six months and this many parcels sold in each County?

Or like, what are you asking it to even tell you? How are you defining hot?

Luis: I think hot markets, I tell them, you know, give me population growth, migration patterns, price trends, economic development. And then as you can see, it's going to tell you all these different markets that are good.

And you're going to be able to verify by going and looking at the data. And seeing for yourself if that's correct or not. And that's what I've been doing. And I've been able to figure out what a good market or what's not a good market.

Seth: Out of curiosity, which AI do you like the best? Do you use Claude or ChatGPT?

Luis: Claude.

Seth: Claude, really? Okay. Have you tried both?

Luis: I have tried ChatGPT. A lot of people use ChatGPT because that's the beginning, right? That's the first one. But Perplexity and Claude, I think they're awesome. On Claude, you can give it PDFs. You can give it, Hey, write this description based on these photos.

So I'm giving the photos to them and they're writing really good descriptions for my properties. So I like Claude. Perplexity is more like searching, kind of like Google almost, but in AI model. So I'll use Perplexity.

Seth: Interesting. I'm kind of curious, like if you could rank all the different AI models that you use, like which would be your top three and what kind of stuff is each one of them good at?

Luis: Claude is great for prompting, like for creating descriptions, writing stuff for my business. Perplexity is great for searching, finding stuff. And then I think ChatGPT, I don't use it anymore, but it's also pretty good for creating automations.

Like Zapier has a ChatGPT built into them already, so that makes it easier. But those are the top three that I say are the best.

Seth: And then just kind of maybe as we round third base here, when you think about if somebody is starting from scratch and they want to do what you're doing, in terms of like getting and selling land deals in 60 days. Like what's the capital requirement?

Like how much money does somebody need to get into this? And are you using a title company and if so, which one? Like, what does this person have to do and know to actually pull this off?

Luis: I think you have to have at least $10,000 saved up to start this. And that's just to be safe, you know, to tell you, $10,000 saved up so that in case you get a deal and you have to buy it, you have that in there. But you could do with $2,000, $3,000 as well.

Seth: And where is that going? Like if you sent a thousand offers, like how much would that cost?

Luis: A thousand offers on ParcelStream, it'll cost me, well, depending how many pages you send them. I usually do one page and I send them yellow postcards. Yellow postcards, because I was testing between white postcard and the yellow postcards.

Everybody sends white. So I send yellow because it catches people's eyes more. So a thousand offers, it's $370 on ParcelStream. So super cheap. And then once you send that out, you're going to be able to get deals.

Because if you're sending the right markets and you're pricing them right, you're going to get deals. If you're sending off markets and you don't know what you're doing, you're not going to get any deals. So you have to make sure you know what you're doing before you send that mail out.

Seth: And do you have a certain, like a go-to title company that you like to use, especially for these double closes and assignments?

Luis: Yes. So I've used a few, but the one that I'm using right now, they're based out of Arizona. Their name is United Title of America. And Keon is the awesome guy who I work with there. He's helped me so many times. I've done millions of dollars with that company in the past few years.

So I recommend them. They have like a land program, a land division that they focus on. And they have escrow officers that know about land. And that's super important because you cannot just go to a title company and just say, Hey, I got a deal. And they're like, what's an assignment of contract?

So you have to know, you have to find someone that knows about land. And I also use Simple Title Solutions out of Michigan. They're pretty good. They do seller finance pretty good. So I use that a lot for seller finance. And they're on Michigan.

And if I'm in California, I use a title company here in Southern California that also does land.

Seth: Super interesting. So I'm curious, because I don't know, like if somebody shows up with an assignment of contract and the title company is not familiar with land deals, I mean, are they just going to say no? Or are they just going to do it wrong? Like what what's what happens if you don't use one of these land specific people?

Luis: They're going to say no, or they're going to mess it up. Because I, when I first started, I used a few title companies and they were like, what's an assignment? We've never done this. It's super risky.

And I'm like, okay, then I'm not going to use you. So I started realizing they don't know how to do assignments. I've been there. So that's why I'm saying you have to find the right person.

Seth: Sure. I'm just thinking back to like what my understanding, like there's really only three things you have to do. Just like prepare that assignment document where it basically says like this contract is assigned from this person to that person for this amount of money.

And then the first closing, you just sign that assignment document. And then the second closing, that's just a normal purchase agreement where the contract is now in the buyer's name and then they're just purchasing it from the seller. Is that about right?

Luis: Yes, correct. Yeah. And then when you're doing the double close, that's a little bit trickier because they have to make sure they do it right. They have to make sure they're using your funds at first to buy it. And then they're going to turn around and use the buyer's funds right away to pay themselves back for the loan.

So if they don't do that on the same day, then you might lose the deal or you might have to get the loan, you know, and then you're going to have to, you know, clear title and everything. So there's a lot of technicalities on it. And I don't think everybody, all the title companies are built the same way.

So you have to find the title company that can help you do that. And assignments are much easier. Assignments, even though you make less money, they're much easier to do because you don't need any money to do it. Once you send out those contracts, you get the contract signed with the seller.

You just send to the buyer, Hey, here's my fee. And you're done. And that's it. You get a check. So assignments are much easier to do. That's the best way for somebody to start is doing assignments because you're not using any of your own money.

Seth: I'm curious when you do an assignment, can you usually mark it up by like a hundred percent? Or like how much more are you getting for these assignments?

Luis: There's deals that I made $30,000 in an assignment. There's deals that I made $2,000. So it depends on your pricing and it depends like what's your buyer's asking. Is he asking for a little less?

Because buyers are so smart, Seth, they go and they see my contract. They see that I got a contract for five and I'm asking 20. So I'm making, you know, 15 Gs. But they're going to negotiate like, Hey, I'll pay you eight. And I'm like, if I'm going to make eight, I'll make eight, you know?

Seth: I wonder what you think about this. And I don't know that there's like a right or wrong answer, but when I did this assignment thing, like a decade ago, I just gave them my assignment fee. I didn't give them the purchase and sale agreement just because they don't need to know what I'm buying it for.

But like, do you, do they demand to see that? Or do you intentionally give them that? Or what are your thoughts on that?

Luis: So when I first started, I didn't want to show them because I was making so much money on the deal. But then when they asked, I said, you know what? I'm going to be truthful about it. And let me tell you this.

Most of the time, if you show them your price, they will negotiate. But if you really like show them, Hey, listen, this is the price. I'm making this much money because I sent thousands of mail to people, hundreds of texts, hundreds of calls. I worked super hard to get this deal.

So I deserve to make the amount that I'm charging you. And most of them are okay with it. And I keep making good amount of money off my assignments. It's just being truthful, like you really did the work.

You know, you went there and you tried the market. You're risking your own capital to send that mail out. So you're going to get compensated for that. So that's how I do it.

Seth: That makes total sense. Yeah. I wonder if it just like depends on your buyer and if they care or not. But I feel like if they're pushing back, you could just say exactly what you said. It's like, dude, I did all this work. This is why I'm getting compensated for this.

Luis: Exactly. And they're like, okay, yeah, you're right. Okay. Yeah. And then most of them, they buy it.

Seth: As I think about like, of all the stuff you talked about today, there's a ton of stuff, like all kinds of awesome nuggets. But one theme I hear is just like capital, capital, capital.

Like the biggest thing I think from what I'm hearing holding you back from massive growth is the capital you have available. Like when you think about that, like, have you thought about, Hey, I'm going to go get investors. I'm going to, you know, figure out how to go borrow money from somebody or something to that effect.

Or like, is that part of the equation at all? Or you just trying to do it on your own?

Luis: So I do want to keep trying on my own, and I have money from my subdivision from investors. But if I get more investors, that'll be great. But right now I'm focusing on doing it on my own because, you know, land. If you flip a property and you make 20 grand, that's going to allow you to do one more property.

So right now I'm just trying to build up my cash in my bank account. I'm investing some into index funds, some into stocks. And I'm saving because I believe that in 2025, a lot of opportunities are going to come because Trump got elected.

So I believe that the economy is going to do better. I know that interest rates are not going down anymore. But I still believe that people are going to have more money because the president wants everybody to win. So I think in 2025, it's going to be easier to sell land.

Seth: Do you have any like specific reason for why you believe that?

Luis: Yeah, I mean, I think the guy is pro-business and he's going to allow crypto to boom, which I think it will. I think housing is going to boom. I think people are going to have more money in their pockets. I think it's going to be way better.

Seth: Yeah, no, I'll be interested to see for sure. Time will tell, but I hope it is. That would be amazing. Luis, just one last question here. When you think about like REtipster, you know, and like the different kinds of land investors that we work with, a lot of times they fit into one of a few buckets.

And it's like, some of them want to build a massive business that can run without them where they just have systems running and agents doing everything and VAs and they're kind of hands off.

And some people want to just like have like a lifestyle business. They're totally comfortable doing the work, but it's not like a massive empire they're trying to build. And some people are like, I'm just buying land to hold and build wealth and I don't really care about cash flow. I just need to get as much land as I can and sit on it.

And there's like a lot of different ways that people fit into this. And I'm just curious, like, where do you see yourself fitting into that? Like, what is the kind of work lifestyle you're going for?

Luis: I think right now I'm building up a massive team where one day it can run by itself. I can look at the numbers and I can just let it run. But I still think I will work regardless because I love land so much.

So maybe I might have a time where I'm like, okay, let's have a week break and let's do something and then come back. But I think having a business, I always wanted to have a business that can run without me, but I'll still be running it because I like it. So that's the perfect one that I would say I fit in there.

Seth: Yeah. That makes a ton of sense. You know, you mentioned that $10,000 somebody should have to get into this. And I totally agree with that. But I think if you just were to think about like, how could somebody pull this off with the lowest amount of money possible?

Like, I think if they just got a free trial of some land investor software and had that for 30 days and then just sent offers for assignments and just had an airtight contract that protects them and makes it clear that this is assignable and they can get out at any time, it seems like you could do this for almost nothing if you really wanted to.

But having that backup of like, okay, I can actually close if I need to, that is super helpful for peace of mind and to get people to take you seriously. But I do think, especially on the assignment side, I mean, the barrier to entry is ridiculously low for that.

Luis: I agree with you. And my buddy Ike, I gave him his first deal. He was one of my students. So I gave him his first deal and I sent the owner to them. They closed. And I'm like, Hey Ike, I want to do this partnership with you because you don't have money.

He didn't have money. I'm like, here's the first deal. So he made $10,000. He was so happy. That was his first deal. After that, I gave him two more deals and he closed. And he was able to, after that, go on his own and start making money.

So you don't, I don't think you need a lot of money, but you have to start taking action. You have to be willing to send out mail and to see what happens.

Seth: Yeah. That's an awesome story. Luis, if people want to find out more about you or work with you or follow you or whatever, where should they go?

Luis: Yeah. So Instagram, LandmanLuis. And I try to post every single day, not just like to get clout, but to also teach people like what I'm doing. And right now I'm filming a mini course where I'm teaching people everything about seller finance. If you guys are interested, reach out to me on Instagram.

And I believe we can all win because there's so much properties out there. So I'm happy to do that. And again, Seth, thank you so much for having me back again. And I'm happy to come back anytime.

Seth: For sure. I love it, man. You're an awesome guy. It's great to hear how you're doing. And I love that positivity and optimism and belief that you can just keep growing. I think that's super powerful and I think it'll take you far. So thanks again for hanging out, man.

Luis: Thank you, Seth. Appreciate it.