How important is it to be fabulously wealthy? Is it possible to live a successful life without making gobs of money along the way?
In this episode, Seth and Jaren talk about the purpose that money does and doesn’t serve in the life of an entrepreneur.
Links and Resources
- The Surprising Truth About ‘Success’ and What it Means for You by Seth Williams
- The Story of the Fisherman and the Businessman
- Thou Shall Prosper by Daniel Lapin
- Joe Rogan Experience #1208 – Jordan Peterson
- 048: Investing in Belize Real Estate w/ Will Mitchell
- 066: Real Estate Investing in Portugal and Uganda – Nathan Amaral Explains How it Works
Episode 69 Transcription
Seth: Hey everybody, what's up? This is Seth Williams and Jaren Barnes and you're listening to the REtipster podcast. Today we're not interviewing anybody. We're just going to sit back and talk about an interesting topic. It's really just the whole question of “How important is it to be rich?” Do you really need to become a millionaire from real estate or whatever your business of choice happens to be? How much does this really matter in the grand scheme of things?
I think everybody sort of has their own number at which, “Okay, that's enough. Now I can stop or now I've made it”. But I think it's important to question some of those assumptions sometimes. A lot of times we spend our lives chasing after goals that we haven't actually thought through that much. Or maybe there is a reason for why we're doing that, but there may be other more important reasons that argue otherwise that we haven't thought a whole lot about.
We just kind of wanted to jam a little bit and go back and forth about this idea of how important is money and how much do you really need in order to be considered a success and how do you define success in the first place.
Jaren: I love that you call this a jam because that's totally what it is. It's just like we're just getting together and…
Seth: And just riffing man.
Jaren: Yeah, I love it.
Seth: There is actually a parable of the fishermen and the businessman. Maybe you've heard this before, but I thought it was an interesting thing for us to read here because it's highly relevant to this discussion. What do you think Jaren, should I read it?
Jaren: Yeah, man. Storytime with Seth Williams. This is great.
Seth: It's not too long. Hopefully, you can deal with me.
Jaren: Everybody just decided to hit 2X on their audio device.
Seth: Did you know the audible app? I think you can listen to it at 3.5X or some ridiculously fast speed.
Jaren: You have to train your ear for that.
Seth: I don't remember what it was, maybe it's 3.5 but I was trying to deal with it the other day and it was nuts. Like I couldn't understand anything that was being said, but I don't know. I guess there's a time and a place. Okay. So, here it goes.
There once was a businessman who was sitting by the beach in a small Brazilian village. As he sat, he saw a Brazilian fisherman rowing a small boat toward the shore, having caught quite a few big fish. The businessman was impressed and asked the fishermen, “How long does it take you to catch so many fish?” Then the fishermen replied, “Oh, just a short while”. “Then, why don't you stay longer at sea and catch even more?”, the businessman was astonished. “This is enough to feed my whole family”, the fishermen said. The businessmen asked, “So, what do you do for the rest of the day?” And the fishermen reply, “Well, I usually wake up early in the morning, go out to sea to catch a few fish and then go back and play with my kids. In the afternoon, I'd take a nap with my wife. And when evening comes, I join my buddies in the village for a drink. We play guitar and sing and dance throughout the night”.
The businessmen offered a suggestion to the fishermen, “Well, I am a Ph.D. in business management. I could help you to become a more successful person. From now on, you should spend more time at sea and try to catch as many fish as possible. When you've saved enough money, you can buy a bigger boat and catch even more fish. Soon you'll be able to afford to buy more boats, set up your own company, your own production plant for canned food, and distribution network. By then, you'll have moved out of this village to São Paulo where you can set up a headquarter to manage your other branches”.
And the fishermen continued, “And after that?” And the businessman laughed heartedly, “Well after that, you can live like a King in the comfort of your own house. And when the time is right, you can go public and float your shares in the stock exchange and you'll be rich”. And the fishermen asked, “And after that?” The businessman says, “After that you can finally retire, you can move to a house by the fishing village, wake up early in the morning, catch a few fish, and then return home to play with your kids. Have a nice afternoon nap with your wife, and when evening comes you can join your buddies for a drink. Play the guitar singing dance throughout the night”. And the fisherman was puzzled, “Isn't that what I'm doing right now?” he thought.
Jaren: Wow. Yeah, I'll tell you. I think he found a new career, so that was very good. There's a lot to impact with that story. I think I read it in a book somewhere, but it's one of the most profound stories, little parables that I've read.
Seth: Yeah, I know. The story kind of just says it all. I don't know what else there is to unpack after that, but just this whole idea of “What really makes you happy?” What is it you want out of life? What's going to make you feel as though, “Okay, I've made it, I've done what I was born to do?” How important is masses of wealth to do that? I don’t know, it's a tough thing because I totally understand the draw to want to make money. Why else would I be a real estate investor if I didn't understand that?
That's a huge driver behind a lot of stuff that I do, but it's not just about that. I think I've figured this out more and more. I think it earlier on in my life it was kind of just like “Make money, make money, make money”. Like somehow figure out how to make money. I don't care what kind of business it is, as long as it's not hurting people, just make money. And kind of as I've gotten further in life though, maybe it's wisdom somehow, I have attained or something, but just realizing that if the goal is happiness or fulfillment, money is not necessarily the thing that's going to make that possible. I think it definitely makes life easier in some respects, but it also makes life harder too.
Jaren: Yeah. I would give a little pushback there because I've seen studies, I think you're right to a point, but I've seen some studies that say that the threshold of income that produces the ability to have a euphoric sense of fulfillment or you've arrived in life or you're okay is about $70,000 per year.
Seth: I think it does depend on what country you're in. But yeah, I think that's right for the U.S. for the most part.
Jaren: For the U.S. Yes. And I think that there's something to that as well, right? I think that you have to make at least some kind of money, like a certain standard of money to not be worrying and not being fear because knowing where my wife's come from and her back story, there is a point where poverty just sucks. It's just constant scrounging just to survive. And I do think that there's that sweet spot where it's like, okay, there is a point where it's enough but it's hard to identify that once you're there. Because “Well, if I had just a little bit more if I just had a little bit more” and then your “At $70,000” becomes $100,000 and $150,000 and $250,000. And then, “Oh, as long as I'm a millionaire, I'll finally get there”. And when you're a millionaire, “I just need to get 10 million. If I got 10 million, I'd be good”. And you're on this hamster wheel that continues to grow and grow.
Seth: Why do you think people keep because I think it's a very common thing. I know some very entrepreneurial people, people who do not by any means need to continue working. Like it's just totally unnecessary. Like they have more money than they'll ever know how to spend, but they keep going for some reason. Like why? Is it because it's fun? It's like a game to them? Like, it's just that's how they entertain themselves or I don't know. What do you think is going on there?
Jaren: Yeah, man. I think it depends on the person for sure. We're way overgeneralizing.
Seth: For sure.
Jaren: But I think that if you've been an entrepreneur your whole life like I think of Gary Vaynerchuk. Like the guy is made for business. The guy doesn't have to work. He could totally go read books all day, hang out with his family. But he loves it. It's the game for him. And that's his version of catching a few fish every day. For me, I don't know if I'm there to be honest. I have to do things and a lot of it that I don't really necessarily want to do because I'm kind of in that point where I'm like trying to reach a certain threshold of income every month and set up systems. I'm trying to generate cash to buy cash flow assets so that whether I'm in a beach in Belize hanging out with our friend Will Mitchell or maybe hanging out with Nathan in the Azores, I have to build those things up first. That's where I'm at in my evolution of entrepreneurship.
But for me, when I'm at a point where I don't have to worry about money anymore, I promise you my day is going to look totally different. I'm going to be reading a whole lot more, a lot more. I probably would still do some version of blogging or podcasting or giving back. Because again, I feel like, as I said in the interview with you, I feel like this medium is the best for impact and that's something that's really important to me. But I definitely would not be taking motivated seller calls. I will bet you money that will not be happening.
Seth: I know, man, I think about that too. Like, I don’t know, if I woke up tomorrow with enough passive real estate to just like dump millions into my bank account every month. Like way more money than I could ever spend. Definitely, the fire would not be burning quite as hot, I guess. Put it that way. But I'd probably shift my attention towards like giving a bunch of money away because that's a lot of fun when you can really make a big difference with a good mission or organization that's trying to do things and all they need is the money. I'm not the kind who's just going to like bust my button until the day I die. Like if I'm able to make it to a certain point, basically I'll be done doing anything for the purpose of making money. It'll be more for the purpose of like enjoyments or helping others.
Jaren: Or having a higher mission. Yeah. Let's explore that a little bit man. Because you said even in your example just a minute ago, you said if I had cash flow that was making me millions, millions of dollars a month, that's when you would shift gears. But the big thesis of today's conversation is “Do you need millions and millions to start running an organization that gives money away and stuff like that?” Like when do you know, “Okay, enough is enough. I've made enough. I'm good. It’s time for me to get off the hamster wheel.”
Seth: Yeah. I don't know why this is coming to mind right now. It is relevant, but have you ever seen the show “Breaking Bad”?
Jaren: I've seen some episodes, yeah. My mom and my stepdad were totally obsessed with that show.
Seth: Yeah. There is a season two episode one, the episode is called “Seven Thirty-Seven”. The reason it's called that is that Walter White, the main character who through a series of unfortunate events ended up in the drug business manufacturing and trying to sell meth. If you haven't seen the show, this guy is a high school science teacher, respectable guy. Like, not the kind of person you would ever think would somehow end up making and selling drugs. But he is a trained chemist and he happens to be able to make the highest quality meth anybody has ever seen. He realizes he has this skill. And it was all motivated by the fact that he was diagnosed with lung cancer and he didn't have a lot of money and he needs to make money fast somehow so that his family is taken care of and his kids can go to college and all this stuff.
And this episode “Seven Thirty-Seven”, he arrives on this number. He needs $737,000 to afford to do everything that he wants his family to be able to have when he's gone. Like pay for college, pay off their house, all this stuff. That is his number. And as you can imagine, the show goes on for five total seasons and he gets to that number through a lot of very difficult, horrible things that he has to do. And then he just keeps going. Because he realizes like “I'm good at this”. Like this is kind of fun and he sort of enjoys the power and the pride and the manipulation. And I think in the show he ends up making like $80 million or something like that.
But it makes sense in a way. If you sacrifice everything that you have to sacrifice and put the time and effort into learning how to make money. Like it's not an easy road for most people. Money is kind of hard to make. I think some people are blessed with really good salesmanship skills and it comes fairly easy to them. But most people aren't that lucky. They have to really, like for me, it has been anything but easy to figure out how to make money in life. And when you finally figure out something that works, it's like you kind of want to squeeze everything you can out of that because it's like, “Hey, this was a lot of work to get here”.
And it doesn't hurt to realize on this Earth anyway, money, it gives you power in certain ways. There are opportunities you would never otherwise have and things you can do. I think it's probably fairly easy for most people to do the math and figure out what do they really want, what are the biggest expenses is going to be in the next 20 to 40 to whatever years of their life. It's like the math of it probably isn't that hard, but the emotion of it is probably what's harder to keep in check and actually sticking to your goal. I think everybody probably has aspirations of coming up with that number, but when you get into it as any entrepreneur knows, there's something almost kind of addictive about it. I don't know if that's the right word.
Jaren: No, I think that's a great word, man. Yeah, because I've been talking to my wife and I've been kind of feeling some of that. I miss the excitement of the simple wholesaling day sometimes where it's like literally every single month was either going to be the best month ever or the worst month ever. There are so many months where it was like to the last day of the month we were going to see if we were going to make it or break it.
Seth: That would be a living hell for me. I would not enjoy that.
Jaren: I mean it's so intense, but man is it a rush. There is an addictive aspect to it where it's like, I'm sure if we got Tyler Hazel on here who is the Head of Acquisitions at Simple Wholesaling at the time that I was the Head of Dispositions, he would a hundred percent affirm of what I'm saying. There is an aspect of it that's intoxicating.
Seth: When you were asking me in the last episode about what would be so bad about going back to a job, I think maybe that's part of it. It just seemed so monotonous. Like when you've seen the other side or seen what can be, like closing a deal that makes you $40,000 - $50,000 in one shot. I mean contrasting that with like, “Yep, another paycheck of couple thousand bucks”. It's so boring. Yeah, definitely, it's thrilling when you figure out how to make money.
Jaren: Again, to play devil's advocate a little bit, I’m definitely somebody who never wants to retire ever. I think that getting to a point where you have enough money where I can just sit around and watch TV all day like that lifestyle just does not appeal to me. I would much rather when it's my time to be taken out, I want to be on a stage or on a mission trip or doing something significant with my time. I don't want to just like get old and watch TV until I die. That's so repulsive to me. And so, how do you figure this thing out? Because it is a question that I ask myself a lot. Like, okay, if I loosely have an idea of like I want to own X amount of rental units that should generate this range of cash flow every month for us to live off of or not only live off of but to give wealth away or use for purposes or whatever.
Once I’m there, how am I going to be able to walk from it and what am I going to be walking towards? Do you think that it's wise for entrepreneurs to early on in their entrepreneurial pursuits to really lay this out and really have a meeting with themselves and like, “All right, when you reach $20,000 a month, no under any circumstances we're walking away and we're doing something different”. Or do you think that it's okay to just be like, “Hey, I'm at 20 I want to go to 50. I want to go to a 100”. And how do you know when you need to stop versus when it's okay to keep going?
Seth: I guess it sort of depends on what drives you. If you can answer the question, “Why do you do what you do?” It's a very open-ended question, but I don't know, everybody has something that motivates them. Some underlying reason that they're doing anything that they're doing right now. I think it also helps to be honest about that. I think sometimes people almost like tell themselves lies or they come up with the reasons that sound good on the surface, but really there's something like going back to Breaking Bad. He spends all five seasons talking about “I'm doing this for my family. I want to be able to provide for my family”. And in the process totally destroys his family. I mean everything just goes caput. Like in the last episode, one of the last scenes, he's talking with his estranged wife and she's like, “Don't tell me one more time that you did this for the family”. And he says, “I didn't do this for the family. I did this for me because I was good at it”. That's one of the things I got. If he had been honest with that all along. I don't know. I don't know if that would have changed his direction or just if it would have helped them have more clarity about his motivations for everything. But it took him till the end to be honest about it in that fictional story.
Jaren: Yeah, I think that's really solid, man. Because something that I really tried to do like I've said, I think when you interviewed me, something that I brought up for good or for worse, my personality is achievement-oriented. I draw my sense of fulfillment from what I accomplish and I can use that as a superpower. But that also is my biggest weakness in my Achilles heel in who I am as a person. If you negatively attack that sense of my security is wrapped up in what I do, that is a huge character flaw. But it's also what gets me to do things that other people aren't willing to do. It's what drives me and it is what fuels my success. So, I think that it's being honest with yourself and just being okay with flaws and all, what you have in your DNA. Honesty is the first step to be able to capitalize on it because you can set up things to protect you from the worst parts of the manifestation of how you are and you then can capitalize on the good parts and double down on.
Seth: Yeah, it actually reminds me, there was an article I wrote for Inc this past year that kind of talks directly about a lot of this stuff. Maybe I can play the narrator again and read some of this for you because actually I spent a lot of time trying to organize my thoughts when I put this together. So, if I just read it, it'll probably come out better. By the way, I'll link to this in the show notes. This is retipster.com/69. But the article is called “The Surprising Truth About ‘Success’ and What it Means for You”.
Every time I hear somebody talking about what it takes to be “successful”, I cringe. Success is one of those catchall words people use to describe everything good in life. But the problem is that it's impossible for everybody to agree on what success really means. Merriam-Webster gave it a shot and they came up with a definition of the attainment of wealth, favor or eminence. It's like, what do you think? Is it fair to sum up every successful person based on their wealth, favor, or eminence? The problem with that definition, I think, or any definition of success is that success is very subjective. Not every successful person sets out to attain wealth, favor, or eminence. Some folks are looking for things like freedom or spiritual enlightenment or self-discipline or relationships with great people.
There are different ways to measure when a person has found success and ultimately success has to be defined by you. This next section starts with “Are you climbing the wrong ladder?” In the entrepreneurial world, a lot of people go into business for themselves because they're looking for freedom from a boss. Freedom from the 09:00 to 05:00 or the ability to live life on their terms.
But many successful entrepreneurs will inevitably start following Merriam-Webster's definition of success instead of their own. They start going after the money, the house, the car, things like that. And there's nothing inherently wrong with those things. But I've found that most entrepreneurs want to be remembered by more than just wealth and fame. That's not really what it all boils down to. Yet somehow that's the path they end up on. And eventually, I think we realized like it doesn't take us where we want to go. It's like spending years climbing up a ladder only to look down and realize the ladder was leaning up against the wrong wall. So why do so many people end up chasing after achievements that don't make them happy? And I believe it happens because when an entrepreneur never intentionally sets their own definition of what success looks like.
And the article goes on and on from there. But kind of what we were saying, I mean it is really important to really think this through, like what matters to you. And sometimes that you have to ask yourself some tough questions and challenge your assumptions and also acknowledge that there's a lot of beliefs that are infused into our heads from a very early age that are not correct or not healthy. They're not going to bring us to where we want to go. I feel like the older I get, the more and more I realize that kind of stuff. Things I've just always thought that isn't right. It's important to be able to take a step back and challenge what you thought you've known all along.
Jaren: Yeah, that's super deep man. I think I'm actually going to take on a homework assignment for myself because I am seeing the significance of this conversation. I'm going to take some time and define, really quantify what success looks like from a dollar perspective. Like how much money should I be making every month from real estate. But more importantly, what are the things that I truly define as success. Because for me success looks a lot more like being faithful to self-discipline than anything else. Like, even if I didn't ever accomplish the financial numbers that I want, being the kind of person who is in shape.
That's something that I've personally struggled with a lot in my life and continue to do so, unfortunately, is like, I want to be a lot healthier and a lot more fit than I am currently. And I want to be able to be the kind of person that works out every day or at least five, six times a week. And I want to be somebody who has spiritual disciplines and is faithful to them and has the ability to govern oneself as it were. And other people might not care about that stuff. But that's the kind of stuff for me that I really just need to get honest with.
I love what you said about honesty and I really want to reemphasize that because it's okay if it looks ugly. If your motivation is grit, start with it being that your motivation is grit and own it. There are pros and cons to that and you're going to have to explore that. But if that's honestly, you just want to make a buttload of money, start there and be like, “Okay, I just want to make a buttload of money. Why do I want to make a buttload of money?” And then go from there.
Seth: It's the “Five Whys” exercise. Whatever your answer is, ask yourself “Why?” again. And whatever your answer is to that, ask yourself “Why?” again. Why do you need a million dollars? Why do you want to make a buttload of money? Why the answer to that? And again, and again. Eventually, you'll probably drill down to what actually matters and what's really going on beneath the surface.
In that article, actually, I came up with a few questions that people might want to just think about if they're not sure what they really value. I'll just proceed to read these questions exactly as they're written in the article here.
The first time I tried this, I found it was surprisingly difficult to think outside the established norms of seeking wealth, status and admiration from others. If you're struggling to come up with your own unique definition of success, try asking yourself some of these questions.
“When in your life have you felt genuinely happy? Who were you with? What were you doing? What circumstances led to your happiness? What would it take for you to recreate those moments?” That's one thing to think about. And then “When was the last time you felt content, satisfied and fulfilled? If ever. Assuming you even know what that feels like. “What made you feel this way? Which of your needs, wants, and desires were being met at that moment?” And then, “What do you value most in life?” Come up with a shortlist of things that matter most to you. “Which items on this list matter more than the others?”
Put the items in order of priority and be honest with yourself again, as you do this. And whatever your answers are, you'll probably find there's a lot more to the story than just money, power and influence as it's defined in the dictionary. When you know what's going on beneath the surface, you'll be able to develop a better understanding of your values and your own definition of success, whatever that is.
Jaren: This is really good, man. For the listeners out there, if you take this as a challenge and you sit down and you really go through these questions and you get clear answers on these, I think it's going to really help you navigate through the waters of becoming financially independent. Because real estate, if you employ what we teach at REtipster and know what the guests say here, eventually you are going to start making really good money.
And money is an amplifier. If you have insecurities or you got issues in your heart right now, when you throw money at it, it's just going to get 5,000 times louder. But if you got this stuff worked out on the get-go, then when you throw money at it, then you're just going to be able to amplify really good stuff that the world needs.
Seth: Yeah, totally. I think it was Will Smith who said, “Money doesn't change people. It just amplifies what's already there”.
Jaren: Oh, nice. I didn't know he said that. That's awesome.
Seth: Well, probably several people have said that, and somehow, I can attribute that to Will Smith. I think it's true though. It's a lot of truth to that. So, anything else we want to explore this topic?
Jaren: I don't know man. I think we kind of hit it right on the head. I think that it's just something to think about. I don't think we have a very clear answer to the question because I don't know, it might be the right decision for this fisherman to scale. Because then all of a sudden, he can not only provide for his immediate family, maybe he can provide jobs for his entire village and some people are called to do that stuff. And that's important. Creating jobs is really, really important. But you just really need to know why. If your goal is to provide for your family and fish a little bit in the morning and have a drink with your buddies at night and you're already doing that, well, then why reinvent the wheel? Money is not going to change that.
Seth: It is interesting. I know this is sort of varying down a different road in the conversation, but I know plenty of people in my life who straight up believe that the attainment of wealth like to be rich, I guess for lack of a better term is wrong. There's something wrong with that. When somebody has excessive wealth or they're in the dreaded 1% so to speak in some way those people are like corrupt or somehow, they got there from bad motives or taking advantage of people. This is a huge thing in a lot of different online realms where people charge money for courses. For some reason that gets pigeonholed as like those people are bad because they're charging a lot of money for a course, which I mean the whole conversation is just nuts.
I mean all kinds of crazy assumptions are wrapped into that, but a lot of times people won't necessarily come out and say, “I think it's wrong”, but that's really what they're getting at. That's the underlying assumption behind everything, all their beliefs about people who are wealthy. The funny thing about that, I was listening to Jordan Peterson one time talking about this. I think he was being interviewed on maybe Joe Rogan or something, but anyway, they were talking about this whole issue of being in the 1%. The 1% richest people in America.
He said it's actually interesting, if you make more than $32,000 a year, you're in the top 1% of the world. Why is it that being in the 1% of America somehow makes you bad but the 1% of the world is okay? Because most people make over $32,000 a year. I thought it was just an interesting point in terms of how people define good or bad or acceptable versus unacceptable.
I think that book "Thou Shall Prosper" by Daniel Lapin has a ton to say about that whole subject. And one of the things that he gets at is he's sort of talking about how a lot of entrepreneurs, like say if they give a lot of money to a local nonprofit and they are on the news because of it, the news will say something like “Local businessman gives back to the community”, ignoring the fact that you already gave back to the community in a huge way by employing tons and tons of people and giving people the livelihood, like how is that not giving back? But when you actually give cash to somebody, then you've officially started to do a good thing. I thought that was a really good point. I had never even thought of it that way, but it's totally true.
Jaren: That book really changed my life because of this topic. I was kind of growing up as a troubled kid and then kind of getting into what I call the missionary mentality. There was a lot that I almost like glorified poverty. Like I grew up in an upper-middle-class family, but for whatever reason, I associated with drug addicts and I legitimately as crazy as this is probably going to sound for the audience members, as a kid, my aspiration was to be nomadic. Like I wanted to be homeless. And my mom used to actually drop me off in Santa Cruz, California and I used to go hang out with a bunch of homeless people. And I actually had a guy tell me that, “Hey, as long as you graduate high school, you can come out here on the streets and I'll teach you how to be homeless and how to survive”. And that was like legitimately the direction that I was wanting to go with my life.
I really had this like the anti-rich, anti-wealth thing. Like all the problems in the world are related to money and all this stuff. But that book like just sold it. It just settled it in my heart that “No, no, no. You can do far better for the world if you can create jobs and you have money”. The more money you have, the better you can make an impact on the world for the positive. And my wife really taught me that too because growing up in real poverty, you talked to anybody that grew up in real poverty, they say, “No, no, no. Money is an amazing thing. Money is a very, very, very, very, very good thing because money means food. Money is a good thing”. I really encourage it to everybody. That's why I always listed as one of my most recommended books.
Seth: There were a bunch of things he said in that book that I had stopped the audiobook and write it down because it was just so impactful. One of the things he said was that, “Most of the good things that you are is a reason to blow other people's horns rather than your own”. It's really true. Any good attribute of myself is either like nature or nurture. I was born with it because of who my parents are and who their parents were or somebody taught me to do the good thing that I do. I just emulated what they did.
It's almost kind of like the question of “Is there even such thing as real true creativity or is everything just a reiterated version of what somebody else has done?” I don't know. Sometimes it's very easy to glorify oneself and think of like, “Wow, I'm an amazing person. Look at this awesome thing I did for the world”.
Jaren: Especially if you look like Seth.
Seth: I know. It's very easy. Like I said, that's a good book. Obviously, Jaren has talked about it a lot. I've talked about it a little bit, but if you ever want to get an audiobook or a book to read, go check it out. Cool. Well, I think that's all I've got to say on the subject. You, Jaren, you got anything else?
Jaren: No, I think that's it and I hope you guys are enjoying us. Switching up the format a little bit here, I know that these last couple of episodes have been a little different and I think we're going to be continuing down the same vein. I think moving forward we'll touch back on more real estate specific topics and things of that sort, but I think we're going to mix up interviews and then just having it be me and Seth to explore a topic. So, if you guys have any topic ideas that you'd like me and Seth to explore, reach out to one of us. Maybe we can do in Facebook or if you want to reach out to me, firstname.lastname@example.org. I'd love to hear your thoughts.
Seth: Not Jared, but Jaren with an N.
Jaren: Yeah. Or Darren like everyone. My name is, it's funny, I have to be very articulate when I say Jaren because some people think I say Sharon, like I'm a girl. It’s terrible.
Seth: I've been present several times when people have called you Jared, which I guess, Jaren is an unusual name. I haven't known many Jaren’s so I sort of get it, but still, it's like, come on man, pay attention.
Jaren: I'm used to it.
Seth: Well folks, if you enjoyed this episode or even if you didn't, if you want to follow along with what we've got coming up next, you can do so from your phone if you text the word “FREE”, F-R-E-E to the number 33777.
I hope you guys enjoyed this. I hope everybody is doing okay out there in the world. And if you want to check out the show notes from this episode, again, that's retipster.com/69. We'll talk to you guys next time.
Jaren: Later guys.
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