Seth Williams: Hey everybody, how's it going? This is Seth Williams. You're listening to the REtipster podcast. This is episode 284. Today I'm sitting down for my third conversation with Logan Fullmer. So Logan has built a business around pursuing the properties that most investors reject. The ones with missing owners and fractured ownership and unresolved estates and oversized liens.

Logan Fullmer: Broken chains of title,

Seth Williams: And tons of other complications that can make an otherwise viable property very difficult to sell. Instead of treating those problems as automatic deal killers, like most of us do, Logan treats them as the source of opportunity. He acquires distressed ownership interest at a steep discount, works through the legal and human complications, and moves assets from inefficient situations into marketable properties. And in our first two conversations, by the way, you can hear those in episodes 177 and 208, they were both fantastic, mind-opening conversations. Logan explained his backstory, what curative title investing is, and where these opportunities come from, and how he evaluates risk, how a beginner might approach a simpler deal. But this time, we're going to quickly reestablish the fundamentals, but then move into some territory we haven't explored nearly as much. Things like how Logan thinks under uncertainty, what happens when people are harder than the title, and how he scales a business built around judgment rather than checklists, and where the ethical lines are and whether this strategy still works when more investors know it exists. So, Logan, welcome back to the show. How you doing?

Logan Fullmer: Good, Seth. Wow, those are good episodes. And now I think back, I'm like, holy cow, you got a run of them. You're like episode 100, 300. And what episode is it?

Seth Williams: I know. Yeah. I mean, we've covered some great stuff. I think the first time I interviewed you, maybe it was just my own perception of the world, but I had never really heard about this curative title thing. And I feel like a lot of other people in my audience hadn't either. And all of a sudden it became this like buzzword and everybody wanted to do it. So I think you really kind of started something with that.

Logan Fullmer: You know, I believe that I can change the way people see real estate. And I've really learned that's true in the last probably three years as the markets have changed. You mentioned earlier, folks are kind of going back to day jobs, shrinking their real estate, losing interest. And it's not because real estate doesn't work anymore. It's because they don't know how to make it work based on what they know.

Seth Williams: Yeah. I mean, from what you're seeing in your part of the world, I know your business is very different than what most real estate investors do. But I mean, do you agree that like, do you think real estate investing in general has kind of lost a lot of popularity over the past year or two? Like are people kind of giving up on it? And why do you think that is?

Logan Fullmer: Yeah, they are. You know, we saw a lot of interesting things after the pandemic. Values would plummet and then spike. You know, it's been a really interesting economy. And making money in real estate is so tied to that. So when you look at the brokerage model, the investor model, from the small guys on Main Street to the big guys on Wall Street, they all have like big time problems and have had early investment thesis was that if I could buy something for far less than it was worth, nothing else mattered. Absolutely nothing else mattered. So like, you know, as Warren Buffett and his mentor, Benjamin Graham taught, you make your money when you buy, not when you sell. So the key is to acquire the assets with built-in equity from day one. And a lot of guys are used to having to subdivide something or repair something or bring new tenants and up the rents. And that's a value add. But if you buy this pin that's worth a dollar for 20 cents, you can make money on it. It's probably not worth it because it's small dollars, but in real estate, whatever you buy, if you buy it for less than it's worth, you make money. So as markets were going upwards, you know, I was earlier in the business when the 2007, eight financial crisis happened. And I really got going, you know, two, three years after that. So maybe about 2014, just didn't know what I didn't know. But for me, I'm like, this is good. We were able, I was learning how to buy low and I would just turn around and resell it without really much construction. I had no idea how good it was until I started to see markets change. I started talking to people and they're like, you're doing what? And you're still growing and you're still making more money. I'm like, well, yeah. And then I got on social media and started to look at everybody's business. I'm like, holy cow, this is good.

Seth Williams: Well, and on that, just in case somebody is joining us for the first time, if they've never heard of you, they're not going to go back and listen to episodes 177 or 208, which again, you should, by the way, but if they're not going to do that, just give us a quick 30 to 60 second refresher. So you are a curative title investor. Is that what you would call yourself? And what exactly does that even mean?

Logan Fullmer: That is what I'd call myself. What that means is there's a small discipline that some title companies and some lawyers and landmen do. It's called curative title. You're curing the defects in a title of land, improved or unimproved property. And that really doesn't matter to 95% of the world because they don't have defects in their title. When you go to sell a property, no problem. They go to the title company, they get the loan payoff and you bring your money to closing and you close. But sometimes you see a schedule C or matters to cure before closing. And it's like a missing probate or multiple owners or judgments and liens, things like that. Curing those defects is what has to happen before a clean title commitment can be issued to close and before a loan can be issued on it, before someone will agree to loan on the property. Curative title is solving those. Now, for me, it's different because I'm doing that to make money. Like a lawyer will charge you three, 400 bucks an hour. For me, I want to do it, but only as an owner. So I have to be able to buy the property with the problems. You know, when other people can't buy it, I just say, look, I'll give you 500 bucks or 5,000 bucks. I say that to the sellers and they've already learned they can't sell it. So for them, they're walking away. They don't care. They'd rather get something rather than nothing. Now that I'm the owner, I'm going to behave. I'm going to do the curative title effort. And once I get clear title, I'm going to sell for what it's worth, which is much more than the five grand or 10 grand that I pay. So the curative title is the key to getting the discount. It's become an operation model.

Seth Williams: So since the last time we talked, I think it was over a year ago now, has anything big changed in your business? Like the way you think about things or the kinds of deals you do or don't pursue or laws or I mean, anything come to mind that it's like, OK, this was true last time and now it's kind of different.

Logan Fullmer: You know, over the last several years, we've worked really hard at decreasing the cash conversion cycle. Today we're between 90 and 120 days. That's our median cash conversion cycle across the six companies in my office. And why that's important is just like a house flip or a land flip, the quicker you get it turned, the lower your risk is, the quicker you get your money back and the less carrying costs you have. And those models, that makes sense. In our world, it used to take us a year, sometimes 18 months to solve these problems to get the property to sell. It's hard to run a business that way. So we've been on a quest over the last several years to decrease the cash conversion cycle. We've done that. We feel good about it now. So we can turn a property about as quickly as most people can flip a house, which is huge.

Seth Williams: Yeah. I was going to say 90 to 120, that sounds really fast considering the complexity of the things you deal with. How is that even possible to do it that fast?

Logan Fullmer: Well, there are two pieces. So you have to go upstream first and tell yourself, what am I willing to accept? When someone comes to me with a 65-owner property like I used to accept, I no longer will accept that. I don't care what worlds you're in, that is not going to be done in 120 days. Now, when someone's got two owners or just a break in the title chain or one judgment or lien, I want that to exist so that I can command the discount. But I don't want 30 of those defects that's going to take me years to fix. So vetting on the front side is 50% of that. The other 50% is just making sure that your project management, your internal project management, you're calling the lawyer, calling the seller, calling the affidavit, you're handling it quicker. That's a process thing. So those things have been major to work on for us. It's helped. Right now we've got about 220 properties in inventory. And we're a hair over 120 days is a standard cash conversion cycle. So we still have to re-approve the money. You should be able to turn capital twice in a year at that rate, at least.

Seth Williams: With that many properties in inventory, I don't know how much cash you have tied up in each one of those things, but tell me, how does the financing work with this? Because I'm assuming banks aren't going to touch this, right? Because they've got title problems. So like, where's all this money coming from? How do you manage that?

Logan Fullmer: That money has come from the last 12 years of a lot of discipline, but this company started with $250,000. That's it. We had to employ a lot more discipline than most people in the early days. So when I'd go buy a property and resell it and make $70,000, I'd give myself $5,000, $6,000 to live on for the month, and the rest would go back in the company. And I'd go buy two more deals. When that money would come back, I'd give myself $5,000 for the next month, and I'd go buy four more deals. That took a long time. I thought that I had to use cash all the time to pay for every debt. So when I'd buy a property that had $5,000 in taxes, $5,000 or $10,000 to the sellers, and that was worth $100,000, I would spend all that money. Another big thing we've done in the last couple of years is really work to manage our cash outlay. So we've started using more creative financing, basically not paying off the debts when we buy the property. So in the past, I would clear it all up. But when I'd go to sell, all debts were paid, liens and judgments were paid, taxes were paid, everything. Now, our average purchase price is between five and $7,000 per owner. So if it's a two owner deal, we're paying less than 10 grand on average. I pay those sellers out and I don't pay the taxes. I don't pay the judgments or liens. I just negotiate them and get settlements. So when it's time to go sell, all that gets paid at closing like an outstanding mortgage. So it lowers our carry costs. But we still have probably across everything, six, seven million in cash out in deals at any given time. But that's been built over 12 years. The message people need to hear is our typical spend per deal is less than $20,000 because we're not paying the debts until you sell it.

Seth Williams: That makes a ton of sense. That's one of those things, if I hadn't just heard you say that, I probably would have done it the wrong way. But I just like, yeah, pay it off, like get rid of it. But yeah, I guess that's just tying up your cash until everything is fixed, right?

Logan Fullmer: Right. That's what we did for five, six, seven years. And finally we're like, we either were just going to tie it. You get to a point in a business where you've been disciplined and you've been reserving capital forever. And at some point you're like, dude, I made $6 million last year. I want some of that dead gum money in my pocket. Well, a direct the last couple of years is like, we're making real distributions, like meaningful and life has changed now. But we have to manage our cash at the company level. Otherwise, you can't take it. You got to use it.

Seth Williams: So it sounds like if I'm hearing you right, all of that cash is your cash, right? You're not like using banks. You're not using funders. Like it's just the money that you've built up over the years. And that's how you float these properties.

Logan Fullmer: That's right. And, you know, in the early days, you really don't need that much to, you know, we started on a couple hundred thousand bucks, you know, and frankly, at that time, money, most of my money was tied up in properties. So I brought in a partner who was willing to build this business with me and he put in 200, I put in 50. So like, I didn't have that much in it. We built a business together about three or four years in when our financials stabilized and we really knew we had a model. Since you can't get title insurance on this stuff, we would go to a local bank and we opened a credit line and it started at 200 grand, which ain't much for real estate. But when you don't pay in 10, 20 grand a pop, you can get you half a dozen deals or more. So we need to employ credit lines now that are unsecured because you can't collateralize this property, but cash and credit lines.

Seth Williams: The first couple of times we've talked, we talked a little bit about how you're finding these deals. And I don't know if this is the only way, but from what I recall, you were talking about using the delinquent tax list. And when you're using that kind of list or whatever list you're using, is your marketing channel like direct mail or are you cold calling these people? Or like, how do you actually contact them?

Logan Fullmer: We, in the early days, we would cold call and then we started seeing a lot of direct mail work. So we'd write these one page offers that would auto feed from the appraisal district and the offer would be 50% of the CAD value. We would actually get people sign, send those back. But it got to the point where people quit. So at that point, our best options were we would want to see delinquent taxes. We would also go into the dockets and look at tax lawsuits because you'd find all the owners in there. You'd also find judgments or liens. You'd find lawsuits affecting property. We'd find bankruptcies. And it was, it required a lot of knowledge, man. And it was really hard. Like that was a very specialized thing we did. Now, what I'll tell you has changed the game is AI. Everybody's starting to use programs to scrape those records and we did that for a little while and it's helpful. What all those people don't have is our track record of thousands of deals that creates a data set that allows us to go make a specific profile and then go look for that. We started doing that and it improved. More importantly, we recently started working with a software company and took our last couple hundred deals in the market and then pulled their list and ran an AI score against it and started to find that we could pick the same deals, the same leads with about a 90% confidence level that it took our people. All this specialized information, we were adding overlays and filters and then backing them off and changing values. And we about got lined up with 90%. So we can literally open the software, pull out a list with about a 90% confidence level, run it through a skip trace program, run it through a relative, a sifter basically, and then plug a dialer in. Instead of taking a month to build a list, you're going to find three days.

Seth Williams: So is cold calling the way you do it? Or is it ever direct mail? Or like, what is the way that you reach these people?

Logan Fullmer: It is always cold calling. Right now we're in seven different states. And I haven't seen any of these properties in a year or two, at least.

Seth Williams: So some of my friends are doing this and they are doing cold calling, probably not as sophisticated as what you're doing with like filtering the list in the way that you are. But, you know, they're cold calling and they're kind of burning out because they just they talk to a lot of people to get somebody who's actually willing to play ball. So how do you keep from burning out? I assume you have like a cold calling team that does this or what is the secret to that? If there is one.

Logan Fullmer: We're a lot less sophisticated when it comes to that than people think. Some of the guys in the office use dialers. Some use cell phones. The problem isn't getting burned out because of the volume. It's they're not calling the right people. When they have to call hundreds of people and have all these bad conversations, that's why it falls apart. The worst guy in our office is about 20 conversations to a deal. So that's really not that bad. The best guy in our office is four conversations to a deal. That's their KPI. So you might have to call 50 people to have 20 conversations to get one deal. The best guy in our office will call back 10 people to have four conversations to get a deal. Four conversations to get a deal. That's because we have the right data. We know exactly what we're looking for, exactly who we're calling, and we know exactly how to have that conversation and make those offers.

Seth Williams: It sounds like the way you do this is by calling the right people, you said. So how do you determine who is the right person to call? What needs to be true about that person on that spreadsheet for you to say, yes, they're worth me picking up the phone and calling them? And what would make you not call somebody?

Logan Fullmer: Yeah. So there's several factors. And it's a challenge because when people just hear this, they're going to say, I'll add those filters. It doesn't quite work like that. It's got to be like an amalgamation of all this together. But we are looking for delinquent taxes. We are looking for ownership dispute or multiple owners. We're looking for people that are disassociated with the real estate, either in a different city or a different county. The reason we need those disconnectivity levels is if somebody lives there or they live close to it and they have this connection, they're more willing to, they're less willing to let go of it. You know how people can sell land easier than a house because it's less useful and not as connected. If they're disconnected from it, they could care less. They'll take whatever. It doesn't matter. So we want to see things like that outline. Now, I will tell you another thing is having the right conversation and knowing how to ask the right questions and engage or get off the phone is highly important because you can spend an hour and a half with this person talking to you and getting a good conversation, feeling good about it. But you know, our call scripting is laid out in a framework where you've got like an introduction intro. You got to get them to stay on the phone with you and at least trust you a little bit or be open. You got to break down the barriers. Then you've got to have disclosure and discovery, you know, a little info, but you need to learn more through them after you've built the rapport. Then you got to build a gap. The gap is the delta between what they believe and what reality is. You help them develop that because it's true. They just haven't developed it that way. Then you give them options, give them three nice options. And then we don't hard pitch. We soft pitch. You don't want to work with me? Great. Here's the options. We don't. I got a bunch of other people today and it's usually four calls per deal. I can't commit. So do you want to work with me or not? And that last part is so important. I remember when I was single, I would like, oh my gosh, that girl's beautiful. I want to go on a date with her. And I would like try and try and try and try and take so long. She didn't want to go on a date with me? Why do I keep pursuing her? There's 20 other beautiful girls. Let me go talk to all 20. The one that wants to talk to me, that's the one I'm going to pay attention to. You got to know that with real estate. What is it? That deal, that's how I married my wife. The one that was interested in me is the one I pursued, and it was the best deal of my life.

Seth Williams: Yeah, yeah. Well, it kind of reminds me, I heard, I think it was Tim Ferriss, he was talking about how it's 10 times easier to sell what the market wants than it is to try to create demand for something that isn't there. So like, don't try to like, make them want it. Like, just go to the ones who know they need it. Sounds like a similar concept, right?

Logan Fullmer: Hit the nail on the head.

Seth Williams: This might be kind of a dumb question, but it came up in a conversation the other day with somebody who's doing curative title and they weren't clear how this works. So maybe, you know, in Texas, when you're buying a property and you only buy a minority share in it. So say there's like seven different owners. They all have equal ownership in a house and you buy one of their ownership. So it's not a controlling interest. It's not a majority interest. Does that change things if you do have a controlling interest? Like, does that give you some lever you can pull to like force a sale or something like that? Or does it just mean, well, we're going to let it go to a tax sale if I can't get these all done and I'll collect whatever percentage I can.

Logan Fullmer: So you have to look at what rules govern the land. When you're on the soccer field, what rules govern that? When you're on the football field, what rules govern that? So the rules that govern a controlling interest would be like a partnership, an LLC, you and your business partner. What are the rules say you have the ability to do? Well, maybe you need a controlling interest in your partnership. Maybe you don't. In the rules of land, you've got to go to the law and that's state law typically. So typically there's no controlling interest or non-controlling interest. The reason is those people didn't agree to own a non-controlling interest. They just, the laws of intestate succession or a will or whatever gave it to them. So they have these rights that need to be protected and defended. What that means is you do not have to have a controlling interest to access your equity. That's an ultimate right. If I own one sixth, like you said, and I want to get to my equity and the other people won't let me, I can sell my share to them. I can sell it to a different person and I have the unrestricted right to do that. I don't have to ask anybody. I don't have to get approval from anybody. I can independently do that. If that doesn't work or I don't want to do it, I can go and file a partition in the local courts and the judge will either cut the property into pieces so I can get my piece. Or maybe if it's a house or a small piece of land that can't be divided equitably of kind, the judge will say, sell the real estate and I'll divvy up the money to all you people. So you can always get to your equity one way or the other.

Seth Williams: I know a lot of our conversations have to do with the assumption that we're working in Texas because that's where you do a lot of work. That's where a lot of people that I know who are doing this are in Texas. But I'm wondering, besides Texas, what other states and why? Or another way to ask the question is, what are states that a person should avoid doing this kind of thing and why?

Logan Fullmer: They should avoid the states where good deals do not exist. So then let's go back to where does a good deal happen? Where are humans living who make poor choices and can't get along and may want to walk away from real estate? What state would that be? All of the land, my friend. In the early days, we stuck to San Antonio because that's where I'm from and I knew it. I then stuck to Texas because I understood the laws. After that, today we're in seven states and I would hear people say, I like affidavit of heirship states because I understand it better than probate required states. We're in both today. I like to look at a market and resources over a specific state these days. You know, Texas, it's interesting. Texas has more people doing it than anywhere. Laws are very conducive to it. People are familiar with it. We've been talking about it a lot. But, you know, people say, well, Dallas is competitive. One of my partners had been working a lot in Houston, went up to Dallas, scraped several million dollars in equity off of like 20 deals in 45 days or something like that and said, I don't know. I don't see a lot of competition up here. So it's skill level. But I will tell you across the different states, you've got probate required states and then probate alternative states that would allow an affidavit of heirship or some other conveyance method outside the probate court. A lot of the probate required states have much shorter probates. If you must go do probate, like Florida, for example, you got to do probate there. You can't do an affidavit. You must do it. But they have these administrative probates that can be as little as a couple of days or a month. It's not that big a deal. Now, the difference is in a state that allows affidavit of heirships, like North Carolina, for example, you can buy deed from that person and get an affidavit of heirship right there. If it's a requirement to do a probate, like say California or Florida, you have to buy an interest in the estate, an assignment of rights and claims, and get a contract. And you buy their share in that estate. You take all those documents in the probate court and then probate as that person, more or less. I tell people, and pick a big MSA. You live in Chicago or you live in Illinois, go to Chicago. It's a big city. There's a bunch of problems. Go do your deals over there. Don't make it complicated.

Seth Williams: How often do surprises and unforeseen costs come up when you're cleaning up a curative title deal? Like you kind of think you understand the situation. You put some money into it. You start taking over and you realize, oh, there's this much bigger problem I didn't realize, or this is way harder to get to the bottom of than I thought it would be.

Logan Fullmer: How often do you get in your car and go pick your kids up from school and you know the route and you know there's never traffic and you're really late one day because there's a surprise in traffic? We're the best in the business and we always find surprises. It always happens, but we plan for that up front. When we're talking about a margin of safety, we're looking for a big discount. Yeah, we want to make money, but our first rule of thumb is never, this goes back to the, you know, Warren Buffett, Benjamin Graham, never risk principal. It's the first rule of investing. A lot of people think it's go look for profit. It's not, it's never risk principal. That's the reason I'm looking for a big discount in the beginning, because I want to be prepared for mistakes and train wrecks and surprises and still never risk my principal, still be able to break even and walk away. Now, the good news is if you're accounting for all that risk, you'll never be in a situation where you lose money because, and many times you'll make a lot of money because those risks you've accounted for don't actually materialize. Risk is the price you pay for the things that you never expected to happen. So we plan for them. But we have, I got a $30,000 tax bill on a property that's set across two jurisdictions. This was last week. We paid the taxes off, but it had a school district overlay for a separate jurisdiction. And we've been here before. We know this happens. And we had a surprise. We had to pay an extra $30,000 tax bill, but it was a $250,000 margin. So instead of making $250,000, we made $220,000.

Seth Williams: So have you ever lost money on a deal?

Logan Fullmer: You know, I've lost money on about a dozen deals over the last 10 years if I had to speculate at the moment, but it's very rare.

Seth Williams: So it sounds like the answer is just make there be a huge profit margin. And hopefully it's big enough so that if anything comes up, you're OK. But there's no like sure for a guarantee. It's just pretty good insurance, right?

Logan Fullmer: Let's start with calling your profit margin a convertible margin of safety. Start with a big margin of safety, and if you don't find those risks, it slowly converts into a profit margin by the time you sell.

Seth Williams: How often is the title defect itself not the real problem? Like what underlying human issues like resentment or grief or shame or distrust or family history most often keep a technically solvable property stuck?

Logan Fullmer: There are two, okay, so that's a really, really good point. Many more times it's the human problem. They don't get along. The other part of it is bandwidth. They don't care. They don't want to fool with it. Let me tell you this concept. So you do have fighting owners and stuff like that, but, and you have some very extreme technical issues, but 50 to 70% of the time, it's not actually that. My creative director is a musician. Dude loves music, like to his core. Me, I could care less. If I never heard a note for the rest of my life, I wouldn't even notice. He cannot understand why I don't love music to my core. I can't understand why he even cares about it. You see the two polar differences? There are people in the world that care about money. There are people in the world that have high bandwidth. They want to fix problems. They're out for it. There are people who don't give a shit about real estate. They don't give a shit about money. And they either inherit a property or they bought it at one point in their life because it made sense at the time. And they don't care. They're just willing to walk away. They could care less. It's perfect. One person doesn't care. The other one does. It's a great transaction because they'll walk away cheap. And when you find that personality, you know, you have a seller that you want to work with. Kind of like a pawn shop, excluding the stolen goods in a pawn shop. Dude, they're done with that shotgun. They'll take 20 bucks. They don't care. That's what we're doing, but on a higher value.

Seth Williams: It's a really good point, though. I mean, think about like many of the interpersonal relationship mistakes I've ever made. And many of us have ever made have been mistaking this idea that the other person cares about the things I care about. We have the same values when many times like you don't like there's so many different value structures that people have. It's just a great thing to remember.

Logan Fullmer: You know what? Me and my wife have had times like that where we're misaligned. And I realized she's looking for something different. I have to get her what she needs out of the situation and I've got to get what I need that's different so that we can both be satisfied. So yeah, that's the foundation of a lot of these. From the buyer-seller matching to the property owners who have different expectations and can't get along. I'll tell you what, we've made some of the most money on deals that really weren't complicated. The family just couldn't get along and we would deal with them separately and it wasn't a complicated title issue. We just had to keep these two siblings that hated each other out of the same dang room on the same phone call. That's it.

Seth Williams: Regarding this cash conversion cycle thing you were talking about earlier, what's the longest you've ever had to work on one of these deals before they finally sold and you got your money?

Logan Fullmer: Let's talk about a loss. We'll talk about a loss. Let me think here.

Seth Williams: Yeah, maybe it's the same question.

Logan Fullmer: Yeah. Let's talk about one of them where we lost money. And then let's talk about one of them where we chose a unique exit. So unique exit, you actually brought up earlier. I don't think people thought about it this way. We wound up in a deal that we bought half of it. And the other owner was a train wreck. They were hard to deal with. There was some very, this one had very technical title issues and it just really wasn't worth our time. We bought something like this, you know, it's a hundred thousand dollar property. We shouldn't be doing that. I don't like to fool with properties that are worth less than 150, 200 grand because you just can't even get the margin you want. And in that case, I, at one point we were starting to spend a bunch of legal fees because lawyers are going back and forth. And I just said, stop, pencils down. We're not going to pay the outstanding tax bill, we're going to let it go to the tax sale. The problem is no matter what state you're in, it takes a while, several years. So pencils down, we had to wait a year and a half, two years for the thing to go to the tax sale and we let it go. And we were an owner. So we got named as a defendant in the tax lawsuit. We went and claimed our excess proceeds. And in that case, we lost a couple thousand dollars. Took two years, lost a couple of grand. We recovered our $20,000 investment. So while we didn't get really much of a yield on it, you know, we had to lose a little, we still got most of our investment principal back, but it did take two years.

Seth Williams: When it goes to tax sale like that, does it ever happen where like, you might not get all your money out of it? Like it kind of depends on what the tax sale sells it for.

Logan Fullmer: That's right. And at the end of the day, you know, if that happens once every 50 deals, that's how business is. Like you have some jobs that do great and a couple of them that don't do great. That's okay. You know, it happens that way. Our goal is to minimize it, obviously. So we maybe lost a couple thousand, but it had a unique exit in a longer time frame. We had a deal that somebody moved, one of the owners moved into the house after we bought an interest. And that's something we're not going to do. We're not going to throw somebody that's an owner out of the house. If it's a squatter, oh, eviction city, baby. Like we're going to court. Or if it's just some random neighbor that shows up and says, this is mine, that kind of stuff and plays like they're living there. We'll deal with that legally. We bought, I mean, this is a hell of a deal. It's a $400,000 property in a big old city. We bought it for like 20,000 bucks. Somebody owned like 6% of it. And we picked up all these shares, 94% we bought for cheap. We're still trying to deal with this last person. They didn't know they had an interest in the house and it was a piece of junk. It was falling over, but it was in a high value land area at a big downtown MSA. Once we got to talking with them, they played us like they were going to play ball. They're going to work with us. And we're going to pay them more than all the rest of the people combined to get the deal done. And that son of a gun moved into the place and it was a dump. Now I have an owner who lives there. I'm not going to sue them, try to evict. You can't evict. I could sue them. There's a lot of ways you could do it. But that means I'm going to be now throwing someone out of a house that they own and they live there. So we settled out three years and I let it go to tax sale. And I told the person, you don't get to stay. Okay. I'm not going to sell it. The sheriff will.

Seth Williams: That actually was one of my questions was when you start looking at a deal and you realize someone is living there, and I guess let's say it's the owner living there. Does that change anything about your excitement or willingness to do the deal? Like, will you sometimes say no because there's somebody living in there? Or is that just like one of the deciding factors?

Logan Fullmer: Yeah. It's everything about the deal. That would be one of our top of funnel filters. Is a person living in the home, an owner, and are they interested in working with us? If the answer is yes, we'll continue. If the answer is yes, they live there. No, they don't want to work with us. No, they don't want to sell. Man, there's enough good deals out there that we don't have to be in stuff like that. There are absolutely enough deals out there. I'll tell you, there's about 170 million properties within about 3,700 counties in the United States. One in 15 has some distress signal, one way or the other. Delinquency, title problems, fractured ownership, deferred maintenance, judgments or liens, something like that. That's 25 million opportunities across the United States and wholesalers and flippers get 80% of those, but they're not the extreme distress. They make some $20,000 fee on it. You know what I mean? But at least 5 million properties that have extreme distress that no one else can really deal with. So like for us, we're offering 500 or 5,000 bucks because no one can touch that. That kind of opportunity there is out here. I do not need to fight some grandpa over at his house. And there's that much run.

Seth Williams: Does it ever happen where you get a deal closed? It goes full circle, you make your money, and then you think to yourself, man, that was totally not worth it. And if so, why does that happen?

Logan Fullmer: You start to build out expectations and premise that a deal is going to look like based on data we find in the county records, interviews with owners, interviews with maybe other related parties, relatives, or neighbors. And we start to build what we believe is true. So we plan for that. And then you have these surprises. Like we've had times where we believe there's X amount of owners or the title looks like this. And we started spending money where we get involved. And then it turns out someone lied to us. Like Jenny, the aunt died and she had six kids, not zero kids. There are now six more owners that I have got to work with. And what are the probability of six people being totally reasonable? You know what? I've had another surprise. I did a complete deal with five owners, sold the deal, made money to a builder who was borrowing money to build a house. And a lawyer sent a demand letter that says there was a sixth owner and y'all cut them out and y'all committed fraud. And I'm going to sue you. Like who signed these estate documents? I didn't sign that. The family did. We paid your lawyer to help them. I didn't do that. Don't come to me, come to them. But at the end of the day, we had to figure out how to make the thing work because a person had bought land from me and they got title insurance, but they borrowed money. And if this got tied up in litigation for years, that builder would have bankrupted. And while I wasn't on the hook, I just didn't want that to happen to him. So I had to figure out how to help sell it.

Seth Williams: A couple of questions regarding the ethical side of it. How do you explain your offer to someone who knows the property may be valuable, but they can't turn their ownership into usable money? What I mean by that is where is the line between being paid extremely well for solving a difficult problem and taking advantage of a person who doesn't understand what they own.

Logan Fullmer: So there's a very bold line there. People have said to us, you want to buy my property for five grand, it's worth $200,000. A lot of people would argue the value. Well, it needs work and this and that. That's not how we do it at all. I'm very transparent. If they want to work with me, great. If they don't, there's plenty of y'all left. I'll go to somebody else and buy another deal. What I tell them is you're right. The appraisal district says it's worth a couple hundred thousand bucks, or it could sell in the market. If you list it on the market right now for a couple hundred thousand, 500, whatever the number that they think, because they're probably close to right. But the answer I go back to is, look, property is worth what someone will pay. So I would encourage you to list it on the market right now. And if you guys can get that 200 grand, I think you should take it because I'm not your best offer when it comes to dollars. And then they, well, we tried and you know, my cousin and this and that. And then I say, look, I know this sounds crazy, but I'm going to tell you what I think your property is worth today. And they say, well, what? Property is worth what someone's willing to pay. You can't get anyone to pay you any money for it. This property is worth $0 until you can solve these problems. I will tell you how I will fix them. This is my plan and I know what I'm doing. I can do this. And if you choose to take that plan and go fix it, by all means do it. If you choose not to and accept my offer, well then by all means do that. I got 30 minutes left before I got to do something else. I'll explain to you now. And I tell them what we're going to do, how we're going to do it. But 99% or 90% of the time, they already know some of this. They've already tried. They're not going to do it. They don't care. So that's why I'm very transparent. If I solve this, I have a shot of making big money. Sometimes I also have a shot at it being much harder than I'm telling you, because there are things that I don't know. Just like I told you earlier, Seth, if it doesn't work, how I get stuck in a jam up, I have lost money before, it could happen and you could lose money easier than me. So here's the story. What do you want to do? They want to work with me. Great. I'm going to go back to find a girl that is interested in me, not one that's disinterested in me.

Seth Williams: Have you ever stopped pursuing a profitable deal because the transaction was legal, but it didn't feel right?

Logan Fullmer: When I feel like I'm being lied to, like there are times where we started to develop more information and realize the sellers were lying to us. I go back to another foundational thing. You can't do a good deal with a bad person. There are people that will get in bed with bad people and still make money. There's too much in life that can go wrong and that can go right. And there's too much opportunity. I am not going to be involved with someone who I think's tried to screw me or something doesn't feel right. All I have to do is call seven more people to get one more deal. Why would I not do that? Now, if you're one of those people that has to call 50 people to get the next deal, you might want to do it. You got to get better leads. You got to figure out how to make better conversations. And if you do it our way, it's easier to walk away from those deals because the next deal is seven conversations away. That's a shift in the mindset.

Seth Williams: How many people are on your team right now?

Logan Fullmer: You know, I need to count in the office. We fluctuate 25 and 30.

Seth Williams: Okay. And how many of those people actually deal with the title issues, like the understanding what's going on and ironing them out and that kind of thing?

Logan Fullmer: Interesting enough, everybody in our office gets it. Some folks work in acquisition, so they're making calls, but they're also trained in research. They're also trained in how to solve the problem. And some of those acquisitions people deal with the solve. Some of them hand it off to another person who basically deals with the lawyers and all that stuff. So I would tell you 70% of the people in our office deal with solutions in one way or the other.

Seth Williams: Like this business depends on like good judgment and persistence and negotiation and the ability to interpret incomplete information. So I might be like overestimating the difficulty of this, but like, how do you train another person to do what you do? Whether it's your employees or like somebody you're mentoring, trying to teach the business. Like, how do you help them get it without giving them 10 years of experience?

Logan Fullmer: Yeah, learning to get as good as us can take you 10 years. I wouldn't recommend that. You don't need that to make money. Why do you care about this kind of real estate? Because you want to make a living. It's not because you love like, I don't know, properties. Like that's not why. I don't know. I love shitty property now, but the solution to these problems to become an expert can take you 10 years. I'm learning stuff every day. It might take me 20 years. I might have 10 more to go. What we train people on is how to understand the lower level of these problems, the lowest hanging fruit, basically, so that you can start making money. Like, let me give you an example. You can go do a $300,000 value property that has 20 owners, or you can do a $300,000 property that has two owners. You probably don't need as much skill to do the two owners over the 30 owners or whatever, 20 owners. Finding something that has lots of equity and very small problems has a high enough hurdle to command a good discount. So like in the early days, we train people to do the easier, more simple deals. You just need a probate. You just need to strip one lien or judgment, one owner deal with a big judgment. All you got to do is strip one judgment. I would tell you 50% of our deals just have ownership disputes. You got two owners. They don't get along. There's no title issue there. And these two people don't get along. I tell people in the early days, go focus on them and you might have to make a few more calls, but those are actually great deals, low hanging fruit. It brings you money in while you hone your craft. In our coaching program, we're getting people deals within the four month period. And some of these folks are high W-2 earners. They're not even in the real estate business, but we train them enough to make the calls, enough to get the deal, enough to recognize a somewhat simple deal so they can get paid. And then we step back and say, okay, do you really want to learn everything? Or do you just want to stick to the simple deals for your career? You can make a lot of money doing that. But in the way we train, if someone's not up and running and getting acceptance for the 90 days, I tell you, this isn't for you. So if people aren't getting it to work in the first 90 to 120 days, then you go try something else. This isn't for them or they got the wrong training.

Seth Williams: In your company, with all the people you have working for you, I'm assuming there's still parts of deals that you personally handle. It makes me wonder, is there any part of your job that still can't be delegated safely? Like what things are so important that Logan has to be the guy that's doing this and why?

Logan Fullmer: I don't need Logan for all that. If you build a business right, Logan is not needed for all that. Seth is not needed for all that. So do you think it's more complicated to build Apple computers or do messed up real estate deals? Which one?

Seth Williams: Oh man, Apple for sure.

Logan Fullmer: Right. How busy was Steve Jobs at the end of his life when Apple was exploding in growth and he was sitting in that hospital bed. How much work was he doing?

Seth Williams: Probably not a lot. Only the things he really, really wanted to do for enjoyment, that kind of thing.

Logan Fullmer: Right. So where I'm going with that is in the early days, I thought it was so complicated. We couldn't train anybody. A lot of this conversation really has to be about mindset. I thought we could only do it in a certain city because I knew the city, the comps. Then I thought we could only do it in a certain state because I knew the laws. Well, we have broken through all those barriers and expanded. So we had to figure that out with human capital and knowledge and intellectual property, IP, basically. And I realized this isn't rocket science. Logan isn't always necessary for everything. And as I started to ask myself, not why it won't work, but how will it work? We started to train and I realized that, wow, we now coach people to do it. We built a big operation. People can learn this just as good as us. If they're smart, they'll take a little bit of guidance from people like us. So they don't take 10 years to learn. They can do it in a year. That's wise. But, you know, at this point, I mean, I'm a shareholder in those businesses. So I got to spend time on social media. I do coaching. I've still got my commercial portfolio I'm working on. But day to day, those businesses are run by other people. Now, when I will get called in is when they have a really complicated litigation matter or a finance matter. They'll call me and say, like the guys running the companies, we're about out of money. What do we do? Or, oh my gosh, like we've got a trial scheduled in nine weeks. What do we do before then? Otherwise, they don't need me.

Seth Williams: I've thought about this in the past. And when I look at the, what appears to be complexities of running this kind of business. And when I say complexity, I just mean like all the different things you need to kind of wrap your mind around and understand the process or find the person who does. It seems like there would just be like endless questions about how to handle this and that. It's hard for me to imagine getting into this and succeeding without having some kind of coaching help or somebody I can call to say, hey, I'm stuck. What do I do? But you didn't have that when you got started, right? So like, how long did it take for you to just figure this out on your own and be confident with it? Was it 10 years?

Logan Fullmer: It took me three to four years to really like get it down and figure it all out. And during that three to four years, I really got good at about 10 real problems. There's endless problems. There's endless caveats. But at some point you say, these are the top 10. I know how to handle those. And if it doesn't fall in these top 10, I'm going to decide, am I going to do it or not? Is the juice worth the squeeze? Should I go learn to solve that problem? Am I going to make enough money or not? Like today, if we're faced with a million dollar profit and we can buy it for 20 grand or 100 grand, we'll go solve that new problem. Otherwise, I don't need to deal with that. I got the top 10 problems that make me my money. So that took me probably four years to get that down. The remaining time was spent building a business. Training people, hiring, helping people understand concepts, helping people work with people better. That was more important at that phase.

Seth Williams: I think a lot of the things that people can waste years of their time doing the wrong way is stuff that you've already answered right here in this conversation. Like what kind of people do you not even bother contacting? Like what's the minimum value of a property to be worth pursuing? Just like fairly simple stuff. But if you don't know it, man, you can beat your head against the wall and do it wrong for a long time. It's helpful to establish that stuff.

Logan Fullmer: If people are close to operating in this world and figuring it out a little bit, and they've listened to this and paid attention, I've just rocket shipped them 90 days ahead already. Imagine what more they could do with like being in the right community, really paying attention to the right people, taking it seriously. We've coached hundreds of people now. And like, that is why this is becoming a real community. I was the only idiot talking about it seven or eight years ago. Today you hear about it. I feel like I should take some credit for being the vocal one about it. And it's starting to work with others, which helps you understand it's not so complicated that I'm the only one that can do it. A lot of people can. Just how quickly do you want to get there? Do you want to get there fast or slow? That's the question you got to ask yourself.

Seth Williams: Now, in 2026, are you using AI to make any part of this business run smoother? I heard you mention that earlier in the conversation. So like what role does AI play for you and how is it making things better?

Logan Fullmer: Well, let me talk about the AI trap.

Seth Williams: Yeah. I want to talk about that too.

Logan Fullmer: We played around with it with content. We played around it with deal vetting, with public record scraping, with analytics. And you know what we found we're doing? We're burning all this time. And I stepped back and said, hold on a minute. I'm watching other people do special things with AI too. And I realized somebody has probably figured out what we need to figure out and they'll sell us the dang AI agent for a hundred dollars or a membership to the platform for 200 a month. And we're over here making like tens of millions of dollars a year. Whoa, whoa, whoa. So we hired one guy that's an AI engineer to do some work. Full-time for us. Outside of that, we're spending our time looking for people that already figured it out. For example, the deal vetting and scraping and all that we were doing, I ended up finding a software company that could help work. We spent about 90 days working with them, figuring out how to vet our deals inside their software, how to make their software work for us. And I realized we don't have to build a damn platform or program anymore. I can pay these people $500 a month to use the platform as long as it's used our special, unique way. I don't need to go build all this crap anymore. So I think a lot of operators are getting so wrapped up in how to make everything automated. They're spinning all the time and I'm like, dude, learn the foundation of the best deals, pay people for all that other stuff.

Seth Williams: It is definitely a trap. And it's tricky to figure out what is worth your while to do, because I think we're getting to a point where you can do just about anything. Like the software isn't the limitation anymore. It's more a question of, should you do it? I think it's totally possible to automate things that you should never be doing in the first place and spend a lot of time trying to figure out solutions to problems you shouldn't even be paying attention to.

Logan Fullmer: So let me go back to an old foundation. This is not new with technology, not new with the AI revolution. The old foundational thing is the foundations still work. Okay. How much did you make last year? Let's say someone profited $400,000 last year. Let's see here. 400 grand divided by 2050 hours. That's the average 40 hour week. That means they make $195 per hour. If I have a problem in my business and I can pay someone less than $195 an hour to solve it, like an attorney or a surveyor or an AI engineer, you can get those guys for a lot less than 200 bucks an hour these days. And they're pretty decent. You need to pay them to do it. Or a software dude. We have ridiculous AI softwares that cost us $200 a month that do it all. We literally pay. And it's not like a Claude or an upgraded version of the AI like chat. It's like a software that's built in Claude that does all this crap. It's already done. That's how people need to be thinking. What do I need to get done? How can I pay someone to do it? Do they use AI? Is there a better software for it? Pay the 200 bucks a month? Dude, I made way more than that an hour.

Seth Williams: That's the other thing. Like I've built my share of like software apps now with Claude and it is really cool, but like software breaks, you know, like the internet changes, like things don't work anymore. And I think there is a point when like, it kind of still does make sense to pay for software when there's a whole team working around the clock to make sure it's still working. And you don't have to wonder, oh, it looks like it's been broken for two months and I didn't know about it. And now everything's screwed up.

Logan Fullmer: You're right. You know, another foundational thing about entrepreneurs is we have this bright, shiny object syndrome. When you think people are doing deals in your office and your time is free and you can go spend it working on this software because it's fun and exciting and new, you think your time is free, but it's not. You should be training people to make better calls. You should be looking at your model to improve it. You can go make another $20,000, $100,000, $200,000 in your business by managing and paying attention this month, than fooling with that Claude trying to figure out how to make a better CRM. Someone already made a better CRM for $700 a month. The work where the money is made is training your people to be better on the phones, finding better leads, managing your capital, learning a new curative skill. That's where the money is. It's not making a software that you can buy for $700. Foundations have not changed. The tools have changed. The foundations are the same.

Seth Williams: We've talked about how AI can kind of lead you astray and give you dangerous confidence that you shouldn't have confidence in. But is AI like doing anything right for you? Like, I think you mentioned it's, is this part of what's helping you decide, okay, these are the people who are worth contacting and these are not. Like, is that an AI function? Is AI doing anything else? Like title searches or anything like that for you?

Logan Fullmer: So let's go back to paying someone to do it. We were trying to figure out how to do it with AI, collect all this information. ProTitle USA uses a combination of AI, overseas researchers across over 3,000 jurisdictions in the United States. And for $200, you can have a 24 to 48 hour title search that is as good or better than most examiners would do. So we will still continue to use their software because it's improved so damn much. Get your title report back in two days. I mean, we're using it a lot for document control. We are still working on a side project to develop how to understand what is the best metric to vet a deal by so that we can run a lead source. And right now we're at the floor, we're able to get 90% as good leads out of the software. We're trying to make that 95, 98, how much better do we get there? So we're doing that. You know, I use it for a lot of copy, but that's like outside of like the real estate world in our content business, you know, right now our kind of business in our studio and our social media. I'm getting about 15 to 20 million organic views a month right now across the meta platforms. And we're basically finding really good content. And then we're loading a database of our information and all our old podcasts, all of our trainings, and then asking it to create similar scripting to those best formats. And dude, we've gone from 5 million views a month to 15 to 20 in about 90 days by getting better information from Claude. This is Claude. This is where it is worth it to make an agent to get this content.

Seth Williams: Let's talk a little bit about competition, if there is any. I know in our first two conversations, it kind of didn't really seem to exist. Is that still true? Or are you seeing more and more competition, especially in like specific counties in Texas where everybody seems to gravitate towards this? Is there a time when the strategy becomes so popular that competition shows up and makes this more difficult? Or do you never foresee that happening?

Logan Fullmer: You know, there are more operators in the market, but in order to call it competition, that means you have to say they're going after the same deals and having conflict. That would be competition. If you just have more people working in the market and they're not overlapping, then I wouldn't go so far as to call it competition. There are times today where we have somebody on the phone and they say they've heard from someone else who's doing genealogy work, doing curative work. We've heard that more over the last year or two. I would not say it's a material difference. I mean, I would still say it's completely immaterial. We're not losing deals to other people, and I've not heard of people losing deals to other operators. You got to remember there are 3,700 different counties in the United States. And I would call us the biggest and best shop that's done this so far. And we're still pilfering Texas. We're still pilfering new markets that we're going to, just scraping the best we can. And I mean, we talked about a couple hundred deals. Remember I said, there are probably 5 million distressed deals out there. And as good as we think we are, I've only figured out how to be able to complete a couple hundred deals a year. And we are in Texas and six other states. That means there's like 40 something other states that we're not touching and other people could build a good business doing this. You need two or three deals a month and you're shredding. So you can go out there somewhere in Oregon where there's not a soul for counties doing it and no one's ever heard of curative title and you can go up there and just clean up. So I don't know. I mean, people tell me there's some competition, but one of my partners went from Houston to Dallas and picked up all those deals in a tiny timeframe with millions of equity. And he's like, yeah, I don't know. Everyone I talked to said they didn't even own the property. You don't even call them, like, and that's in Dallas County. People say it's the most competitive market in Texas, which Texas, they're saying is the most competitive state of the United States. And I say, what? We picked up a couple of million dollars there in 45 days.

Seth Williams: It makes me think of the land business because I remember when I was starting with it in 2009, there was no competition. And the people that were doing it kind of had this idea that there will never be competition. This is always going to have a huge moat because it's land, it's boring, people aren't thinking about it. You fast forward to today and there is definitely competition. I mean, it took a while, but like it's there and it affects a seller's perception of what their property is worth because they're getting all these offers from people and they think it's worth a lot and just make stuff more difficult than it used to be. And it sounds like for curative title, I don't know if that day is coming. It's a different animal than land for sure. I think it takes a lot more mental capacity to work through some of these things or just have the stamina to get through it. But it sounds like if that competition ever does show up, it's not going to be tomorrow or the next day. It's probably going to be quite a ways out there.

Logan Fullmer: Let me put something into perspective for a minute. Let's say someone sends out 5,000 mailers a month. Remember, we're researching, finding people, digging them out, cold calling them. That takes more work. In the land business, I did this too in land for a little while, and everybody else did. You go in and you send out bulk mailers. Let's say you send 5,000 a month. That's not massive. A lot of people do that. A lot of coaches were coaching that. It was all over the internet. 5,000 mailers a month. Let's say there's only 1,000 land investors in the entire United States. I think there's way more. I think you could say there's 10,000 mailers going out by 2,500 investors a month, right? That's very reasonable.

Seth Williams: Yeah.

Logan Fullmer: That's 25 million mailers a month times 12 months. That's a third of a billion letters going out. Could you see how a market could really get moved by a third of a billion letters going out a month or a year? That's a lot. And I bet I'm underestimating because I know people that do 20,000 mailers from one dude. That can change quickly and the hurdles to getting the deals done were so low. That's why I think land had so much going on so quickly.

Seth Williams: So this next question is kind of open-ended by design. So if you don't have an answer, that's fine, but I'll just ask it. So are there any uncomfortable truths about distressed investing that people who sell courses or posting wins or showing settlement checks rarely say out loud?

Logan Fullmer: People make mistakes and they lose money. They do. It happens. We've done it. Other people do it. You know what I'd tell you that they don't talk about out loud. They show where they made two, three, 400,000 bucks. They don't talk about those six other deals that they didn't vet well. They're still in their pipeline. They're dragging on for six months. I see operators come and coach and they get great. I mean, they have great results and then they get out there and they no longer have a decade of training per coach across five coaches. So 50 years of cumulative training, they don't have that behind them and they're out there making a decision. Well, it's not that big a deal. I'll do this one. I'll get it fixed. And they start burning all this cash. And then they say, well, let me go get some private lending. And they find themselves in a year in a spot where they've got like all these deals in the books, they can't move, private lending debts built up and having to service debt every month. And they find themselves in a weird spot, but they post this $300,000 check and they're working 90 hours a week because they've failed to train, hire, manage well. Like that's a, I mean, that can happen in any business. But you see it here, it's a wreck. And I want people to be honest.

Seth Williams: Who do you think should not get into curative title investing? Like what personality flaw can make an intelligent, well-funded investor kind of dangerous? And when I say dangerous, I mean bad in this business.

Logan Fullmer: If they don't have discipline and they don't want to work hard. Look, a doctor makes two, three, four, five, $600,000 a year, right? We are making multiples of that a month. Don't think that this is easy. I work my butt off to build these companies and the guys that run them work their butts off. Now they're paid multiples of what most doctors are. But remember, when you're earning multiples of what a doctor is, think how hard it is to get a degree to become a doctor, a certification, a license. We're making more than them. So we have to put in an equivalent amount of value exchange in the marketplace. This is not easy. But if you're gonna work 50 hours a week and you're gonna bust your ass and you're gonna be in real estate, why don't you do this over other stuff? But you better show up with your work boots on.

Seth Williams: Yeah. When you say discipline and willing to work hard. So elaborate on that discipline enough to do what, like what requires discipline just to follow up with people or to do something else? Like, like what is the hard part of the working hard?

Logan Fullmer: The discipline part or the hard part is showing up, being willing to do a lot of work. Things get easy. Things get hard. You got to have staying power. You got to put in the hours and time. That's the hard part. The other part is making those decisions. Like earlier when I told you, someone calls and says, they'll sell me a sliver of a property for nothing, but it's a train wreck. Don't run away with those bad ideas, those bad deals. Stick to your laurels, stick to your discipline and say, you know what? I know it's cheap, but that sounds like a lot of work. Let me look for the things that I think I know how to solve now. The things that I think sound easier. Do not get lazy. That capital goes quickly. And if you can't go to banks and just pile in debt because you're not there yet, or you can't collateralize the real estate like most people can, you have to stay disciplined. The best deal I ever did is the one I didn't do. I don't know if you've ever heard that. But turning away all the deals and only accepting the good ones is a skill. And people don't learn that until they get involved in a bunch of bad deals. Listen to me today and don't harm yourself in the future. Learn it the easy way.

Seth Williams: Now, you've got an event coming up, right? Tell me about that.

Logan Fullmer: We're actually going to do a boot camp. We were going to do a live event in October and we decided to do a boot camp. So people don't have to travel.

Seth Williams: Is it like a virtual thing or how does it work?

Logan Fullmer: Yeah. So people can attend from all the United States. It's going to be two to three hours a day over about two hours a day for four days. We're going to do it mid-October. Mid-October, end of October is when it's scheduled for.

Seth Williams: Is this kind of like just walking through examples of deals or like what's the bootcamp all about?

Logan Fullmer: So we've got case studies. We've got a lot of technical. I've got like, we talked earlier about scripting, just the five pieces of a script that we make when we do outbound calls. We actually get to go through that and talk about the different phrases. So when people say, well, I don't know how to make these calls, you just need a good outline. And if you get derailed, go back to the script and drop that phrase. It gets you right back on track. You can go over all that. Yeah. It's going to be really fun. My events are not like real estate events where it's hype and sell a bunch of shit. It's about training. They just get called events because they got so darn big lately, but it is a training.

Seth Williams: Yeah. Even that script outline alone. Like I'd pay for that right now. That sounds super valuable. Is there like a website? Oh, I love that. I love that. So is there like a website or something? Where do people go to check it out?

Logan Fullmer: If they'll go to just type in my name on Google or Instagram, go see me on social media. Most of our stuff we'll make available out there when it's time. You know what else I would tell folks? I've got the coolest information about my background, my history, how we built this business in this book. If you go find my social media platform, there's a link on there. All you got to do is pay for shipping. It's less than the price of lunch, but dude, I put so much into this. Like I'm really proud of it. It's really fun and it's a very easy read. I think people, if they even care about real estate, they need to go get this.

Seth Williams: Yeah. I will include a link to that. This is Logan's book, Distressed Property Secrets. Also a link to the event whenever that's ready. I'll put it in the show notes, retipster.com forward slash 284. Logan, as always, it's a pleasure to talk to you. You're a wealth of knowledge, awesome conversation. I hope we can do it again sometime. All the listeners out there, thanks for hanging out with us, and we will talk to you again in the next episode.