Seth: Well, hey everybody. How's it going? It’s Seth Williams here from retipster.com. Welcome to episode number 25. So, it's actually just me here. My new co-host Jaren couldn't make it here today. So, it's just you and me. For this episode, I wanted to talk about something called the “Infinite Banking Concept”. And this was something I heard about not long ago. Somebody had left just a totally random comment on one of my YouTube videos, just saying, “Hey Seth, have you ever heard of the Infinite Banking Concept?” And I hadn't really. It actually sounded kind of familiar. Like I thought I had heard it in passing somewhere, but I didn't really know anything about it.

Just those words, Infinite Banking Concept. It sounded really interesting to me. And I figured I got to look into this. I got to figure out what this is all about. So, I did a YouTube search, saw a few YouTube videos about it, discovered a podcast about it, and listened to every episode I could find about that. And I was just fascinated by. I was just eating up as much as I could learn. It just sounded so, so interesting. And really, it's something that is fairly complex. There's a lot of different pieces that go into it. But to try to give you a really quick overview of what it is before we dive into this interview, because I think it'll sort of help you if I kind of give you a primer on it.

So, the Infinite Banking Concept is basically where you as an individual try to replace the bank's function. And what I mean by that is say, for example, when you need to buy a house or you need to buy a car or you need to take out student loans or really loans for anything you can imagine. Instead of going to a bank to borrow that money and then paying them back with interest over a fairly long period of time and ultimately losing a lot of money because that money can be fairly expensive when you borrow it from a lender like that. Basically, you can do the exact same thing. Only you borrow the money from yourself, and then you pay yourself back with the same kind of interest or the same period of time. And as a result, instead of losing all that money to a bank, when you're paying them back, you keep all that money and you pay it back to yourself.

One of the key components that the Infinite Banking Concept runs on is essentially when you build up this cash reserve that you can then use to lend to yourself and pay yourself back. You're not holding this money in like a checking account or a CD or a mutual fund or anything like that. You're holding this money in a whole life insurance policy. And this right here is kind of the sticking point. Even for myself, the first time I heard that, I was like, “Oh, okay. So, this is all about selling me whole life insurance, which is crazy-expensive. And I know the life insurance salesman gets a huge commission every time they do that.”

So, it's one of those things where pretty much like right off the bat, when a lot of people hear whole life insurance, there's sort of like this knee jerk reaction to immediately write it off. Like, “Well, this must be a scam”, or “This is clearly just designed as a sales tactic to get me to buy into whole life insurance”. And I'll tell you, I think there's probably some truth to that, but it doesn't necessarily eliminate what it can do and why it might be something worth paying attention to. And I will say that just based on all the stuff I've read, the different conversations I've had with different financial advisors about this specific concept, I'm fairly confident that the Infinite Banking Concept does not make sense for every person in every situation. Because in order to buy into a whole life insurance policy and fund it to the point where you can actually start borrowing from it and then paying it back, it can take a number of years in a lot of cases. And it pretty much always takes a lot of money to pay into this policy before you can actually start borrowing from it.

And I'll tell you, a lot of people are not in a position where they have tons of money available or a huge income where they can afford to buy into a policy like this. Because as it was explained to me, one of the biggest drawbacks of whole life insurance is that it's very, very inflexible. Like you have to make a monthly or some kind of an ongoing payment. And it's usually a very big payment, every single month for several years until that life insurance policy is like fully funded and you can really start leveraging it to the full tilt. And I can tell you just looking at myself, for example, back when I was 25 years old and pretty new to the workforce and not making a lot of money, this would have made absolutely no sense for me.

First of all, because I just frankly didn't have the money to do that. And even if I did, it probably wouldn't have been appropriate for me to like rob every other financial aspect of my life, just so that I can bend over backward to fund this policy every single month. Like, it just didn't make sense by any stretch.

However, when I look at my life now, I actually sort of do have the money to do this. Like if I really wanted to fund a whole life insurance policy and then start using it to lend money to myself, or lend money to other people for various things, lending money to buy new pieces of real estate, I probably could do that. Like that's a pretty realistic thing that in my current situation does make sense if I want to do that, but it does not make sense for everybody.

And I'm not here to tell you what your priorities should be. I'm definitely not a financial advisor. So keep that in mind, as you're listening to everything that I say and everything that we talk about here in this episode, because it really is imperative that you talk to your own financial advisor and figure out “Does the Infinite Banking Concept make sense for me in my situation and what my goals are and where I'm trying to go?”

So, I guess what I'm trying to say here, before we jump into the real meat of this episode is that based on all of the in-depth research I've done on this over the past month or two, and based on all the conversations I've had, I'm pretty confident that the Infinite Banking Concept is definitely a legitimate thing that can be extremely powerful as part of your overall financial strategy. But it's pretty important to be clear on what it is and what it is not, and who it does and does not make sense for.

And again, I can't tell you any specifics on you or your situation, but I think this episode could be kind of enlightening if you think you may be in a position to pursue this kind of strategy at some point in the future, maybe you can't do it now, but as part of your overall investment approach, you want to start putting this to work later on in life, as you get further along then I think there's a lot to be learned here. And also keep in mind, this is not everything that you need to know in this conversation we're about to have. These are really just a few important bits and pieces, but there's a lot of stuff to be aware of and to learn about before you can really dive into this with an educated idea of whether or not it's the right thing for you.

Again, just looking at myself like I have spent many, many, many, many hours now researching this, and I'm just now starting to get to the point where I think I know whether or not it's something I'm going to do. So, I don't expect you to know at the end of this episode that this is the right or wrong thing for you, but I think it could be an important starting point for you.

And if you do want to learn more about this and really dig in deeper and find out whether or not there's something here for you, we're going to list a lot of very, very helpful resources that are worth checking out in the show notes for this episode. And all that information can be found over at the blog at retipster.com/25. Again, that's retipster.com/25. And there you'll find links to a lot of the stuff we talk about here. You can find the original video conversation and just a nice summary of what this stuff is all about.

So, with that said, in this particular episode, what I'm going to do is I'm going to chat with a friend of mine. His name is M.C. Laubscher. And M.C. is somebody who actually had me on his podcast, The Cashflow Ninja podcast about a month or so ago. And the funny thing is at the time when we talking, I just kind of thought he was like a general real estate and investing guy. I didn't realize that he was actually an expert in the Infinite Banking Concept. It wasn't until a couple of weeks after I had talked to him that I was doing some YouTube searching and I found a conversation with him and Clayton Morris about the infinite banking accounts.

And I realized, “Wow, this guy knows all kinds of stuff. Why don't I have him on the REtipster podcast and I can find out if he can help me understand more about this?” So, that's kind of the origins of how and why we're having M.C. on the show and M.C. knows a ton about this stuff. And I think that be really clear as we dive into this and we start learning more. So, with that said, I'm going to jump into this prerecorded conversation and you can listen to it and hopefully, you'll learn a thing or two from this.

Seth: M.C. how's it going?

M.C. Laubscher: I’m good. And yourself? Thank you so much for having me on Seth.

Seth: Absolutely. I did pronounce your last name correctly, right?

M.C. Laubscher: You did, yes.

Seth: Awesome.

M.C. Laubscher: Yes, good job.

Seth: Yeah, yeah. So, M.C. runs a podcast called Cashflow Ninja where he interviews lots of the big names in the industry. And I was actually lucky enough to get on his podcast like a month or so ago. And at the time when we were talking, I didn't realize that he's actually an expert in something called the Infinite Banking Concept. And Infinite Banking Concept of something I just learned about it about a month ago. And once I realized, “Hey, M.C. is an expert in this”, I figured I should have him on the show because there's a lot of things that I've been learning about it. And it's pretty fascinating. And I think there is, I don't know, as I have been trying to educate myself, I kind of, I don't know. I feel like there's definitely something here. Like it's a pretty, pretty brilliant concept and can be very powerful for certain people in certain situations. But everywhere I read about it, I can't help but feel like I'm not getting the whole story. Like I'm missing something.

So anyway, I just have a huge list of questions here. I'm not sure if we'll get through all of them, but I'm just going to grill M.C. and try to learn as much as I can for him about it. And if you guys are not familiar with the Infinite Banking Concept, maybe it's a good fit for you, but maybe not, but in any event, I think you'll find it pretty interesting.

So, M.C. I guess if it's possible, I know there's a lot that goes into it, lots of little details, but just to give people a high-level idea in five minutes or less, what is the Infinite Banking Concept?

M.C. Laubscher: Yeah. And there's been a lot said about that. So basically, what the Infinite Banking Concept is, it is people reclaiming the banking function in their own lives and they implement and execute the same by the same principles basically is what banks do. But they're keeping the banking at the “you” and the “me” level where it originated. It wasn't just at the banking level at big commercial bank.

So if you look at the history of economics and people and how we started to trade with each other and border, and then found a better medium of exchange, which then quote-unquote became the money and it was sold tally stakes, gold, silver coins, and then lighter deposited those into goldsmiths or stored it somewhere and got certificates against it to a client to something. The banking function was always at the “you” and “me” level.

So, basically in five minutes, I would say that, how do you achieve that? How do you implement and execute the same principles while you utilize a vehicle? Which is a dividend buying a whole life insurance vehicle with a mutual insurance carrier, and you use this to warehouse your savings. It's a savings vehicle. Life insurance is not an investment. So, I think that is what a lot of people kind of what throws them off.

So, I want to be very, very clear that savings are to preserve and protect. I put a lot of emphasis on words, because words are very powerful, controls the way that we think. And a lot of the words are just thrown around in the economy. Like for instance, saving and a qualified retirement plan. You're not saving, right? You're putting money at risk in the hopes of a gain and you're not really even investing. You might even be speculating.

So, what the Infinite Banking Concept is, is to build up savings and warehouse savings and dividend-paying whole life insurance contract with a mutual insurance carrier. And that then can be collateralized and you can access the money for whatever needs you have. Whether it be investing in your business, whether it be investing in investments, whether for emergencies, whether for purchasing capital, major capital purchases, down payment on a house, cars. Even utilize it for vacations because you have full control over your money. You have access to the savings vehicle at all time. You can use it at any time, which impacts the value of money. So instead of relinquishing all control, it allows you to control.

Now, I mentioned the four-letter word out in the financial services space - Life insurance. So, I just want to also say that this is a very specific type of life insurance policy structured in a very specific way with a specific carrier and or company by a specific practitioner. And I call them practitioners because not all life insurance agents even know about this. They don't know how to structure it correctly and they don't know how to set it up.

So yeah, it's done very specifically to achieve the outcomes that you're looking to achieve. I think that's just a big picture overview. I know you have a ton of questions that we're going to get into, so I'll let you fire into those.

Seth: Yeah. Sure. So just to kind of summarize, I know when I first heard about the Infinite Banking Concept, the thing that kind of got me, and the reason it made sense was that whenever you need to borrow money for anything in life, be it a house or a car or education, student loans, you name it. I mean, one option is to go to a bank and to borrow that money and then pay it back with interest. And basically, that's how banks and lenders make tons of money is from interest.

And with the Infinite Banking Concept, you're basically taking a loan from yourself and you're paying yourself back and paying that interest back to yourself. And you're doing that into this whole life insurance policy. I'm just curious, I know the first time I heard whole life insurance policy, I was like, “Oh, okay. So, you're going to try to slim your whole life”. And I was like, “That's what this is all about”. Why does it have to be whole life insurance? Why couldn't we just do this with a 401(k) or our own bank account or an IRA? Why couldn't we borrow money that way and then pay it back to ourselves in that fashion? Like why life insurance exactly?

M.C. Laubscher: Yeah. You might mike a couple of really good points. And I think the first thing that people have to be cognizant about is the amount of interest that we pay to third parties, such as banks and financial institutions. Now you notice, I didn't say the interest rate. Because in most cases that's irrelevant. The bigger picture, the big 30,000-foot view is the amount over your lifetime if you think about it. Just think about a mortgage, right? If you purchase a house, let's just say for $200,000, how much money in interest over the life of that loan is paid to financial institutions? So, even if you lock it in at 4% or 5%, and you're thinking that you're getting a very good interest rate, what's the amount of the total interest that's paid out? So, I think that's a very big part of it.

Seth: Yeah, that’s a good point.

M.C. Laubscher: Yeah. So, from a big picture point of view, now, why life insurance? Now there's a couple of things. So, I didn't come into this from the life insurance industry. I came into this as a real estate investor, and I was looking to do things more efficiently. And as I was learning and I was being exposed to higher-level strategies, I had a mentor that sort of had a summer to a family office set up where he had all advisors under one roof working towards the family's goals. It was a real estate investor that owned thousands of units in multifamily, that old money in the family. So that gave me a window to it. So, when I researched this and I recommend that to all of the listeners and viewers should, I looked at a couple of things, right?

And there were certain things that we were looking for, “What am I for in a vehicle that I'm going to wear out my savings and why do people use life insurance?” So, tax-deferred is a big one that people look for vehicles. Right now, a 401(k) is tax-deferred and so forth. It's something that is tax favorable. But also, tax-free distribution. And that kind of cancels out a 401(k) because I like to control taxes - When I pay it, how much I pay it.

If you're living in an environment where the country is $21 trillion in debt, there are unfunded liabilities of over, what is it now close to $120 trillion, right? Social security, Medicare, and so forth. You realize and the other figures that are out there by the way, is that 50% of the population, the top 50% of income families, whether it's individuals or households by 97% of the taxes in the country, you know that there's a big, big ticking time bomb.

So, I like to defer my taxes, but I also want tax-free distribution. So, in essence, the vehicle provides tax-free growth over the long-term. I pay my taxes now. I don't pay my taxes 30 to 40 years. Competitive returns is one too. So that kind of rules out CDs and money markets accounts and so forth. Contributions, how much money can I put into this vehicle? How much money can I take out of this vehicle?

If you're looking at IRAs, there's a limit you can put in. If you look at 401(k)s, there's a limit. I don't want to be told what to do. I don’t know if it's the by near bloodline that I'm in from South Africa, but that wasn't very attractive to me. Then also the opportunities to collateralize it. Now that's also a big thing. Safe harbor - I want to protect my money because that's what I've learned from studying the wealthiest people. People talking at a cocktail party about Warren Buffett talks about “Rule number one of investing is don't lose any money. Rule number two, follow rule number one”. But they put their money at risk anytime. So, I want to put my money in a vehicle that I know I can warehouse my savings in and by preserving and protecting it.

The other thing too is full control over it, access it at any time, how I want it, when I want it, for what I want. I want to be able to collateralize it meaning using an asset and the ability to borrow against it, or leverage an asset. And then also one of the big things and the big picture over what I was looking at is just, how can I integrate it? Does it integrate easily with other investments? Because I was an investor, right?

So, the stuff that I look at and the vehicles was first permanent life insurance and a whole life insurance policy. I looked at a HELOC strategy, right? Home equity line of credit. I looked at a stock account. Most of your listeners might be familiar with asset-based lending, where you can collateralize your stock account to borrow against, to invest in real estate. There were CDs that I looked at. I looked at money market savings and then 401(k)s and IRAs. And when I looked, I researched all of this, the whole life insurance policy, check the box of tax-free growth. Tax-free deferred, deferred taxes, and also tax-free access. Competitive returns. I can contribute to how much I want. I can take out how much I want for when I want.

There are additional benefits, like life insurance component to it as well. Which helps with protecting my insure ability and my human life value to my family. There are collateralized opportunities. You can build up cash value in the life insurance vehicle, and then using that, the money that you've built up as collateral for a policy loan from the insurance company, not from your own policy.

So, I know that might be an area that there's a lot of confusion about when you access your money, you don't access it from your own policy. It's through a policy loan from the insurance company that comes from a separate account, usually their general account.

And then also the principal's guaranteed. There's also a guaranteed growth. You can access dividends as a shareholder of a mutual insurance company and you are a shareholder by having this whole life contract with them. I can access my money at any time. If you try to do that with a 401(k) there's only a certain amount you can access. You have to explain why you have to access it, what you're using it for. With a whole life insurance contract, there are no questions. It's this is the amount that I want, and we'll send you a check or we will wire it. You have to have enough cash value in there, of course.

So, those are some of the big things. It just allows for more control. And that ties into the concept of reclaiming the banking function too with infinite banking and IBC, because it's all about having control, having control over your money, how you use it, when you use it, what you use it for and setting up cash flow from there.

So, yeah, I think that ruled out all of the other ones for me. If you run it through that checklist, it truly stands out if you compare it to a 401(k), IRA, money market and CDs, HELOC strategy and the whole life competitive return part of it as well. I might not have touched on that as well. Just think about what you get in CDs and savings these days. Your home equity certainly doesn't pay you anything.

And then also, the 401(k), I really wouldn't even consider it a savings vehicle because it's an investment vehicle at best, and I'm being very generous here. It's not a place to warehouse a savings, which savings is to protect and preserve. When I save an apple, I don't put the apple at risk. I protect that apple and I preserve it.

Seth: Yeah. Yeah. And I know, as I was reading, and by the way, there's a book out there called “Becoming Your Own Banker” by Nelson Nash. That's what it's called, right?

M.C. Laubscher: Yes.

Seth: And that's kind of like from everywhere I've read this is sort of like, I don't know if he invented the Infinite Banking Concept or not, but he's kind of the one that everybody references in terms of the Bible of this whole thing. And one of the things he talked about in that book was most people when they get their paycheck, it's directly deposited into their checking account at the bank. So, if you're doing the Infinite Banking Concept, instead of depositing it into the bank, you deposit it into a whole life insurance policy. And then at a point, you can borrow money from that. So, it's kind of just like saying, “Okay, instead of putting it here, I'm going to put it there where I can access it and where there's a guaranteed return”. And is that accurate? Am I understanding that correctly, M.C.?

M.C. Laubscher: Yeah. So, there are different ways of doing it, but essentially, you're replacing where you warehouse your savings, right? So, if most of us, and this is a paradigm shift, and this is through generations, right? That you warehouse your money in the bank. You go to the bank, folks open up a checking account, or a savings account for their children right away. So, through the generations, you just see you put your savings in the bank. Well, what you're essentially doing here is the money flows into your personal economy, from your employment, from your business, from your real estate investments. And then it's directed instead of just the bank, it's directed into an insurance policy.

I also want to say this too, because I think people think in extreme terms usually that money still comes into a checking account. You're not eliminating banks completely. Money still comes into your checking account. There's a portion of the money that comes in that is then sent to the insurance company. So, we try for our clients… The goal is to save 40% to 50% of your money and a portion of that savings we warehouse our savings in these contracts, just for everything that I just mentioned.

And I have to say too, when you look at where I was saving at a bank versus a mutual insurance carrier too and a company, and especially the ones that we utilize because again, not all mutual insurance companies are equal. Not all banks, most definitely are not equal. If you look at the biggest risk that I said is political risk, economic risk, market risk, but institutional risk. I think a lot of people missed that one.

So, it's very important, not just what your money is in, but what's with and where it's held. And these companies have been around over 100 years, some of them close to 150 years. They've seen depressions, recessions, market crashes, and so forth, and they've survived all of it. They have billions of dollars of excess cash reserves.

They have a different mindset than for instance, the stock insurance company because I know there's some listeners listening to me and saying “M.C., but what about AIG?” AIG is an insurance company. Well, they're a stock insurance company. They're listed on the stock exchanges. They're managed for their shareholders, which is their stockholders. And they have to announce annually and quarterly earnings and all that stuff where mutual insurance carrier manages the company on behalf of its shareholders, which is its policyholders. So, they have a much more long-range, kind of thinking and vision and can manage their company a little bit more conservatively. They don't have to chase a lot of profits like a lot of companies do in the Wall Street casino.

Seth: Sure. Now, skipping ahead here to just one of the technical questions. I know you mentioned earlier something about how you can, like, if you have X number of dollars in your policy, you can take that money out as a loan and use it for anything, and nobody's going to like approve you or anything. And I'm just curious, let's say I open up a policy tomorrow and I immediately inject $100,000 into it.

M.C. Laubscher: Okay.

Seth: The next day, can I take $100,000 out as a loan? Or is it like, can I take $60,000 out? What is the maximum I'm allowed to take out?

M.C. Laubscher: Well, there's obviously a little bit of a phase where it just you deposit money into a bank account, $100,000 in a bank account. You're not going to be able to access $100,000 the next day, right? So, there's a time delay with financial services. I mean, there's checks that need to be deposited. And there's a whole process not to get into that wheat. So, it's not going to be available the next day. It's going to be available in a timely manner and that's all relative.

But I think the bigger picture here is, “How much of that money would I be able to access?” Well, this is a life insurance policy. So, there's a component that will be insurance costs the way that this policy is structured. And then some of it will go towards cash value. And usually of that cash value that's available, you'll be able to access 90%. Up to about 90% roughly, that's available in cash value. And that's the collateralized opportunities.

So, let's just say, not that you deposited $100,000, but let's just say hypothetically, there's a $100,000 of cash value from deposits that you've made into the policy. You're going to be able to access close to $90,000 of that collateralizing it. And what I mean by that is the insurance company has that $100,000, your account and the death benefit as collateral for you, the borrower for that loan, that you're getting from the insurance company, not from your policy.

So, from a banking standpoint, you have two sides, just like a bank where there is a deposit side. You make deposits like grow. The principle is guaranteed. You get a competitive guaranteed growth on it and then also access dividends. They're not guaranteed, but they've been paid out by most of these institutions for a hundred years consecutively. And on the other side, you get to collateralize that account by getting a policy loan, access it on your terms, what you need it for. And then you can basically use that for, as I mentioned, within your own business, financing cap, big, large capital purchases, emergencies, financing investments, and so forth.

Seth: Okay. So, somebody like myself, I have always sort of followed the whole Dave Ramsey concept of pay in cash for everything, if and whenever possible. Like just don't do loans at all costs. So, this kind of flies in the face of that sort of, because the idea here is to borrow from your policy for as much as possible because the more you borrow and the more interest you pay back to your policy, the more your policy is going to grow. So, it's kind of like ultimately a net positive if you're borrowing it from yourself versus a bank. And I guess I'm curious, like what types of things make sense to borrow money for? Are we talking about houses, cars, and college? Or are we talking like groceries, like everything? Just help me understand, where does it make sense, where does it not make sense. Or is that just a personal question?

M.C. Laubscher: No, that's a great question. And by the way, you mentioned Dave Ramsey and Suze Orman and so forth. They put out a lot of good information for people that, their financial house is in complete disarray. And here's the first thing that I would say for who is this for. If you don't have a structure, I would say if you don't have your house in order financially there's no magic bullet. There's no magic vehicle that's all of a sudden going to make your situation rosy.

So, if there's a lot of disarray, you don't have a structured spending plan, we prefer that word over a budget which is a little bit more restrictive. From the world view of a spinning plan, how much is coming in, how much money's going out, then this, you should start with Dave's stuff.

On the other side of it, you mentioned a couple of things and the one word came to my mind. It's efficiency. Because what we look at is it's just a way of doing things more efficiently. So, if you have your house in order and you're looking for a financial strategy how can you do things more efficiently from a savings perspective, from saving for higher education for your children, from investing. From basically financing large capital purchases right, like cars and down payments on homes and so forth. And even, in some of the home financing, because those are very large wealth transfers. If you think about who benefits from all of that its banking and financial institutions. So, there's a lot of inefficiencies that people have over there.

So, to answer your question, you start with, you mentioned, “Should I just pay cash for it? How should I finance it?” So, there's three ways that you can actually buy something. The first one is cash. Now you've bought something and you have the thing. Let's just say it's a car. You have the car but the money is gone. Now the one thing about efficiency is there's an enormous opportunity cost and this is, I think, what the wealthiest families are cognizant about, what the middle class and the poor are not cognizant about is. There's an inefficiency there because now the money is completely gone, you've lost the ability, from that savings, to earn a predictable return over time because essentially, now you have zero savings, now you start again. And you build it up again.

The second way is to purchase things if you don't have any savings, and unfortunately this is the majority where folks are. You have to finance it. Using that same example, now you have to finance the car. So, you've to borrow, most people borrow 100%, they pay it back, now you've paid the loan off, you still have zero savings and you have the vehicle.

And then there's a third way of utilizing an asset, a vehicle, building up savings in that, collateralizing that asset, to acquire another asset or, in this case, this is not even an asset, it's just a consumer good, a car, for instance. But let's just say, using that example, you build up the savings in this policy, then the money that you have in there in cash value can be collateralized. You can access it, purchase the car. Now you have the car, you still have the savings that still is earning interest, it's protected. And now you're paying the interest back to the insurance company in your policy but you haven't lost the opportunity cost of that money that keeps on growing for you.

And if you run the numbers because I think the truth about money is scary. But if you really run the numbers, when you pay it down there's, of course, interest, that's earned on a decreasing amount and interest that's earned on an appreciating amount. So, you're going to end up, not to get it to go completely in the weeds, but you're going to end up ahead by doing that.

Now the real power, and I think it was the third part of your question is, “What should we use this for?” I wouldn't go as far as doing groceries, that's a little extreme. So how we use it and how our clients use it is they use it for their business. A cashflow management system for their business. Business cycles go up and down. There are many moving parts in a business. This is a foundational resource for them to sell finance things, to access things for payroll on a down month, because there's a business cycle. Every single month, every single business has that. It's seasonal.

People within their own personal economy have used it to finance major capital purchases such as cars. They've used it, for instance, to maybe go on vacation. And just a disclaimer, you're not going to get rich while buying your cars through this. That's just a little bit sleazy marketing out there. It's just a way of doing it more efficiently. So, you can finance those goods through it and then, of course, savings for college and that would be a podcast episode in and of itself because this is a financially invisible vehicle. It's private, it's a contract between you and the insurance company. It's not on your credit report. People don't really know that people have this.

So, when you're running into like, FAFSA, assets such as the 529 Coverdell, that actually, in essence, penalizes your savings of your family. And of course, it's in the stock-market. You can only access it for education and so forth. So, it's a very efficient vehicle to save for higher education as well.

What makes it really powerful Seth, and this is how I came into this, is by acquiring investments. For instance, real estates. So if you save money in this policy, you warehouse your wealth in this, there were savings in this policy, you leverage your savings to acquire something and invest in other assets and then redirect the savings, the cashflow from those investments, where you would previously just redirect it back to a bank. Now you redirect it back into your policy. That's what was really powerful for me.

Again, I didn't come up with this. I copied and pasted what successful people do. That's been kind of the thing that I've being in my life. Just finding people that are successful, that's already achieving what I'm doing. And this is what a lot of families are doing in family offices, a lot of very, very successful investors and I just basically followed their step. But I think those are kind of the things that you should utilize it for. And then, yeah, I think, was there another part of that question?

Seth: No, I think that kind of answered my question just in terms of… Because I think the thing that I struggle with is, like take the scenario of, like actually my wife and I are probably going to buy a car tomorrow and we've actually been looking at this because we have a policy with some cash value, enough to loan to ourselves to buy the car and then pay it back. But as I keep looking about that it's like, suppose we just paid cash for it. It's true, I lose the cash and I'm giving up interest that I could be gaining in the policy if I had just taken a loan from that. But, if I buy it cash, I also don't have any payments and I don't have any debt I have to pay back to myself. And I don't like payments. And if I care about cashflow then that's one less payment I'll have to make.

So, when you're buying depreciating assets like that, I feel like if I were to make a loan to myself and pay it back, I'm just taking money from one pocket and putting it in the other. It's just kind of this big circular. But what you're talking about in terms of buying investment properties, where there is independent cash flow coming in from that to pay the debt service, it's not me paying it from my own, I don't know, W2 income or whatever source of income I have. I had another sort of similar question that kind of correlates with that. Does it make sense to take the money in your policy and loan it to other creditworthy people so that they can pay it back and they can pay the interest so I don't have to do this? It's not like it's going to cost me anything. Is that a viable thing that people do?

M.C. Laubscher: Yeah, so to address the first part of it. Great, great question because when I consult with clients initially that is one of the top questions that I get. And by the way, I had the exact same reservations that you had just there. It's a little bit of a paradigm shift. This is when I was working through this and this was a very big lightbulb moment for me.

So, let's just use that example. So, you're going to purchase a car, you're taking the money from the policy, you're financing the car with that. Now you've an extra payment. Instead of just paying cash for it. So, if you had just bought that cash, let's just say you'd go out to the auto store or the place that you're going to buy the car, and you buy it cash, now the money's out of your account. So, what a mentor said to me at that stage was, “M.C., let me ask you a question. Are you ever going to save money again?” And I said to him, “Well, of course I'm going to save money again”. And he said, “So, where would you save your money?”

So, in essence, and just to come back full circle, in essence you're replacing the bank where, if you had just the bank, you take the money from the bank, you bought the car with it, right, and now you're saving again. So, from a cash flow perspective, and being a person that has systems set up within their own personal economy, you're going to save the money back into the bank. You're going to build it up and save it back.

In essence what you're doing here is you're accessing the cash value from your policy through a policy loan. You're purchasing the car, cash, and you're just saving the money back in a more efficient way, that works out big picture wise for you. And it's the same with real estate investments and I know I keep bringing this in because it's just so powerful when I see it from that point of view, for down payments or investing in investments.

Let's just say, for instance, you're going to invest in, I've a client that a lot of them invest in syndication or even turnkey. So, they use the money to invest in syndication. So, they take the money from their policy, they invest in the syndication. The cashflow from the syndication is paid back into the policy but as they are saving, they also put still additional savings back into that policy. Because the money, again, becomes available, again, to be borrowed against.

There's no limit on how many policy loans you can take out. You don't have to pay back the entire policy loan in full before you can access another one. So, when you do that there's kind of an infinite flow from an investment perspective, between the policy and investments. Because if you have enough money available in your policy to invest in another syndication, and there's another opportunity, you can just do the same thing and the numbers is just staggering when you do one thing, from your perspective of cash. Like, “Look, there's numbers that we have played around and strategies that we've developed for clients where they have a passive-income goal in mind. They know that, for instance, they have to deploy a certain amount of capital over 20 years, let's just say, to achieve that”.

They could do it without the policy, absolutely. No one's saying that that's not a good way to do it. Of course, do it. You'll still hit your target. But by integrating it with the insurance, not only do you have the life insurance components but some of these clients' strategies, there is a significant amount, extra, additional, that they have in their policy, tax-free, over the course of 20 years, just by running it through the policy.

So, it's just a way of doing it more efficiently and, like I said, I just copy and paste. What do they do in family offices? We copy and paste. We take the strategies. We apply to ourselves. And I always say you don't have to be a Rockefeller or a Carnegie to do some of the strategies that they implement and execute in their own lives.

Seth: Yeah. So, in terms of some of the arguments against the Infinite Banking Concept or just against whole life insurance in general, I was talking with one of many things he does is sell life insurance. He was telling me that with the various companies he works with, when he sells a whole life insurance policy, he said that anywhere from half of the first year's premium to 120% of the first year's premium, plus 1% of the ongoing premium, goes to him as a commission.

And I know, if we're looking at this from the standpoint of, “Okay, whole life insurance is an alternative to a bank in terms of where I'm saving my money”. But a bank isn't going to take a huge chunk of my money like that upfront.

M.C. Laubscher: That's correct.

Seth: I mean knowing that, why would I do whole life insurance if I'm instantly losing so much money to just paying the salesman that sold it to me?

M.C. Laubscher: Yes. You know what? That's a fantastic question and I'll just preface this by saying - I don't drink any Kool-Aid. I look at all different sides of the coin. Robert Kiyosaki said, “There's three sides of every coin, heads, tails and the edge”. So, you always have to be aware. And, look, here's the truth about it. The truth is that it's all about strategy and not just products.

I know folks that invest in real estate, businesses, bitcoin, and all these other different asset classes, gold and silver, and I know folks that have made a lot of money and are very successful. I'll use bitcoin for an example. I know folks that are buying islands in the Caribbean right now, because of their investments in bitcoin and some cryptos. And I know, unfortunate, I've seen stuff in the news, of people that mortgaged their house and lost everything. So, what's the difference between it? It's all strategy.

Dave Ramsey and Suze Orman says “Whole life, it's a horrible, horrible investment”. And guess what? They're correct. I have folks that talk about how whole life is the foundational asset and one of the best places to put your money. And guess what? They're correct as well.

So, what is the difference between all of this? And I see sometimes, I've been interviewed on a lot of shows so I talk about it and then I get very angry emails. If you should see some of the emails that I get – “This is a scam. You're a scam artist”. All that kind of stuff. And my response is, here is why infinite banking, bank on yourself, all these other terms that people use, here's why it's a scam. It's a scam if it's not set up correctly, with the right agent, and with the right carrier.

Because it's a completely different ballgame than what most insurance agents will do out there. What your friend, or the individual that you spoke with said is 100% correct. I can't argue with that. Absolutely, most of these policies and, again, tying in Dave Ramsey, that's why it's a horrible investment, structured and set up that way.

First thing is that they have to realize it's not an investment at all, it's a savings vehicle. And if you set it up with the right agent, that's an IBC practitioner or prosperity economics member, anyone in those types of groups that are out there, they'll be able to set it up correctly for you, structure it correctly so that you're going to have some of the premiums that you put in. And, again, this is all relative, every case is different. Underwriting is different. But you're going to have almost 80% of the cash value available immediately in the first year of the premiums that you put in.

So, what these agents do Infinite banking practitioners, prosperity economics folks, all those, is they essentially cut down their commissions a lot. So, you're going to have to find the right person to do that, otherwise you're going to be sold a policy such as that angry emails that I get. They said, “Look, this is what. I went to my brother-in-law, I listened to you, he said he could do it” because unfortunately this is the truth.

Coming from an outside perspective into the financial services sphere is most financial professionals and advisers will never admit that they're wrong or that they don't know something. Which is, it's just one of those things. They don't look smart or they think they look stupid just to, I don't know how to better put it. Where, if they actually would say to someone, “Look, I'm in insurance, but this is not my warehouse, I don't know anything about it. Do your research and find someone else to help you”. Or that person should look into it and at least refer someone or be able to provide that, that would be so much better.

So yeah, I would say to answer that question in full for your listeners, it could be the worst place to put your money. It could be one of the best places to put your money. It's all relative. It's the strategy, not the end product. And most asset classes and vehicles, where people need to be successful, whether it's real estate, businesses, commodities, insurance, digital and blockchain technologies, paper assets, stocks, bonds, mutual funds, is a strategy and then also a team of power players, professionals, advisers to help you execute it, and then also accountability.

The same is for this. So, it has to be set up correctly for it to actually do what it's supposed to do. So, it could be the worst place for you or it could be one of the most efficient places to put your money.

Seth: Now, I know, I personally have a couple of different term life insurance policies which basically means I'm renting the life insurance. So, when it lapses, when I'm 80 and if I haven't died yet, then I've just wasted all that money for all those years. But it's also, at least at my current age, it cost me like a few hundred dollars per year whereas whole life insurance, it's all relative to how big your policy is but I've heard numbers like $500 to $1,000 to a lot more per month.

It's something that's fairly inflexible. It's like, you better be making those payments and if you stop, the whole life insurance policy is going to start eating into itself. And like you said earlier, you better have your financial house in order. Don't sign up for this unless you're actually willing and able to follow through and pay on that policy. Would you agree with that?

M.C. Laubscher: Absolutely. I've talked people out of bigger policies. I continually do that because you can always add policies to it. So, I'll start by saying this. There's no deals in insurance. There are only trade-offs. This is one of the best-run businesses and business models that are out there. That's why Warren Buffet loves insurance companies. So, there are no trade-offs, it's math. It's algorithms. That's the first thing that I'll say.

The second thing is term insurance. People ask me about term insurance. It just is. Do I have term insurance? I actually do, believe it or not. I've banking policies set up according to the Infinite Banking Concept and I've term policies as well. Why would I do that? Because I have an overall strategy. I just don't focus on the products.

And part of that strategy is protecting my human life value for my family. Meaning, for instance, if you're listing to this interview and you make $100,000 a year, you're 30 years old. A company's going to look and say there are 35 to 40 years of insurability. Let's just say that 30-year-old is married and has two children. Very young. I just started a young family. There's a lot to protect for your wife and for your children and so forth.

So, what happens if you pass away? Well, they're going to get the proceeds of the life insurance and here's another thing that I'll say. One of the statements was there are no deals. The second thing is, nobody gets rich off insurance. No one. It's the same thing with car, property and casual. If you write-off your car, you don't get rich by from the check. You just get enough money to purchase a similar car or what the value of the car was. The same is with life insurance.

So, if you pass away at that stage, yeah, let's just say his spouse gets a check at that stage for $1 million. People would say “Oh, that's a lot of money, she's rich”. No, no, no. They lost $3.5 to $4 million of his human life value, his capacity to earn over his lifetime for his family. So, I think that's the big part to drill home on that and I won't go into that too much.

But the strategy should be to protect you, as the producer in your family, the creator, the business person, the breadwinner, and then do it effectively as along with your overall financial strategy and objectives of growing passive income and so forth.

So, it's all holistic. There are many different moving parts. I get this question so much. Should I buy term insurance because I see that to buy term, invest the rest kind of strategies. Again, efficiency. Wealthy people will never ever take on a risk that they cannot transfer to a third-party. Look what Warren Buffet does. Warren Buffet's not going to buy stock if he can't buy an option against that and protect his position in the market and transfer risk to a third-party. He's just not going to do it. So, if that's good enough for Warren Buffet then why would I take on all the risk and have that term insurance expire, by the way?

Let's just say that same example, that 30 year old, the term expires. Let's just say he had a 20-year term. Well, now he's 50. What if he's becoming uninsurable that, for instance, stuff happened like a cancer scare? Now he's uninsurable. Or he's 50 years old, maybe his health deteriorated. He's getting higher or different insurance ratings. So, his premiums are through the roof. He's lost all of that money from the term.

I could go on and on about efficiencies and opportunity costs but I would just advise your listeners to look at the big picture, because everything's connected. And we talk, this is my message this month and for the rest of the year, we're so focused on driving returns and increasing returns. Be efficient first. That's what I learned studying a lot of wealthy folks. And lately, I've made some good friendships in the family office space. And Seth, I'm just like a fly on the wall, like a sponge. Just soaking it up. Taking notes, seeing what they do, where their focus lies, and it's completely different there where most of our focuses are. So, their efficiency is a big thing because, yeah, the amount of money that you lose throughout your lifetime by being efficient, just like with the term insurance thing, is huge.

And by the way, just the last thing I'll say on term is there's convertible term options which means that the policy can be converted into a whole life policy within the first 10 years, without the person having to go underwriting again. So, for me, as part of my strategies, speaking for myself, number one, it's to protect my net worth, my insurability to my family, my human life value. But also it's kind of like an option that I purchase for 10 years, that if something should happen to me, that I will be able to convert that without going underwriting again and convert that into a banking policy to continue to protect that human life value to my family.

Seth: I heard somewhere that, I was kind of surprised to hear this, that term life insurance is the biggest profit center for life insurance companies. Is that true?

M.C. Laubscher: Absolutely.

Seth: Is it?

M.C. Laubscher: It's a gold mine, oh yeah. Because think about it. From an underwriting perspective it's basically a bet between you and the insurance company that the first, from their side, it's like “Listen, you're going to pay us money on premiums. If you pass away, we're going to pay out a fixed amount to your spouse or your family”. And the other side of the coin is, “I'm going to pay premiums into this and if something happens to me, they're going to pay out to my family”. So, the bet, I think the numbers are like, but it's around about like 98% to 99% of the time the insurance company wins that bet.

Now it's the same thing. If you look at options that just expire in the stock market, it's the same. I haven't looked at the ratios so I don't want to say that but I can assume that there's a larger amount of options. Please correct me if I'm wrong and send me an email, that just expires without it being converted or making money.

So, it's essentially the same thing, it's very profitable the insurance companies. So, I will just say to folks, again, it's term insurance. It just is. How you use it and what it's part of, from a holistic strategy, makes all the difference.

Seth: Yeah, it's called term insurance. Another name for it is “hope you die” insurance because…

M.C. Laubscher: Right! Think about it though. The best day of a term insurance policy is when you get it and the first premium payment. After that, you're basically quote-unquote losing the money if you don't die within that framework. Because it's a sunk cost. So, it serves its purpose but I really hope that my term policies never have to payout.

Seth: Yeah, yeah absolutely. So, if somebody's listening to this and they're interested in the Infinite Banking Concept idea and getting involved with whole life insurance for this specific purpose, but for one reason or another, they can't get approved for a whole life policy. Maybe there's a… Whatever they had, a cancer scare, or there's some health issue and the underwriters decide, “No, it's not going to work”. Are they just kind of out of luck? Do they have any plan B that they can pursue or what would you say to those people?

M.C. Laubscher: Yeah, so this is another great question because it just triggered another thought that I had. This is the thing that blew my socks off if you want to use that analogy, is when I researched this myself and learned about it. It just was mind-blowing to see how much banks and corporations own these permanent life insurance contracts, that is part of their portfolio, and where they warehouse their savings. The banks have… There's a type of capital term called tier one capital. And the bank puts permanent life insurance in these contracts in tier one capital and then max it out by the way. Because this is the safest place to put their money. And when regulators look at the financial health of a bank too, they look at the tier one capital.

So, banks have it, corporations have it. There are executive comp packages. The other thing that people will pull up when they see it, for instance, is that GE's Jeffrey Immelt, rather, walked away with a life insurance compensation package. Jim Harbaugh, the head coach of the University of Michigan, the Wolverines, all of a sudden, he gets compensated through a life insurance policy. How do these things work? Bank-owned life insurance is called BOLI. Corporate-owned life insurance is called COLI. There's a lot of executive comp plans.

Now, to answer your question, you can own a policy on someone else's life that you have insurability on. For instance, I own my son's policy. I'm the owner. I pay it, and I control my son's policy. It's on my son's life because this is part of his savings that my wife and I are putting together for him.

So yeah, if you're uninsurable, let's just say you're married and have a spouse, well both of you can own the policy but it's underwritten on one spouse's life. The same thing with companies. A company can own a policy on a person's life. We do buy-sell agreements to fund that for entrepreneurs and small businesses. We do executive comp structures where if you want to maintain and retain an employee, one way of doing it is to own the policy, you as the company, set it up on his life. Find the policy for him and put for instance, a contract together and say, “If you stay with us for 10 years or 15 years, we'll sign over the entire policy to you”. That type of stuff.

So yeah, you don't have to be it but you do have to have insurability. Like insurance companies will look at it and say, “You don't really have an insurable interest on this guy you just took off the street and now you own the policy and the insurances on the person's life”. So, there are other options. We've done great things. Legacy planning is a big thing. Parents owning policies on children. Grandparents owning policies on parents and children. There are many different ways to do it but that's also another, I mean, you've had a ton of great questions and I know these are frequently asked questions that listeners might have.

Seth: Yeah absolutely. Now, out of curiosity, just more of a technical question. Say if I have a policy where the death benefit is $150,000. Maybe the current cash value in there is, I don't know, $20,000 or something like that. And if I take a loan out for most of that $20,000 and then the person, whether it's me or whoever's policy it is, they die. What is the death benefit then? Do they just take off the loan amount from the balance, is that how it works?

M.C. Laubscher: That's how it works, yeah. So, it would be, yeah. That's how it's done. You have to think of it this way and this is also a mindset shift because people will say, using a different amount, let's just say there's $1 million of cash value in there and there is $3 million or $4 million death benefit and you take out, you've borrowed all of the money, the $1 million, they're going to deduct that and then pay out the proceeds to the beneficiaries. If you still have that $1 million in there, million dollars, let's just say it's $3 million death benefit, you get the $3 million. You don't get the $3 million and the $1 million. Think of it as a savings account that pays out a multiple. In this example a multiple of three times the account value.

Now that doesn't happen with a 401(k). It doesn't happen with an IRA or any. It doesn't happen with a checking or a money market account. And also, tax-free, income tax-free to beneficiaries. Again, there are limits in caps for very, very high net worth individuals. I think they just raised that as part of the tax cuts but that's when we get into a little bit more of the weeds. But generally, it is, yeah, income tax-free to the beneficiaries.

Seth: And you may have touched on this earlier in our talk, maybe I just missed it but, I know one of the big benefits of using whole life policy for this purpose is that if you take a loan out the cash value continues to grow as though you never took that loan out. Is that correct?

M.C. Laubscher: Yeah, so it's collateralized. Meaning, you're still going to enjoy the payments on that. Now some companies do take in consideration if there is it, so maybe they won't pay you the full amount of the dividends, for example. You still have the growth on it, the principles guaranteed, and so forth. So, I just don't want to take a broad brush and just wipe all of it and bag it in the same bucket.

So yeah, there are things to consider but I think the big picture is that you're collateralizing this asset, that you're building up your savings, to them be able to do something else with it. It's what we call dollar maximization. This is the one thing that I've studied from very wealthy individuals is they don't only just have their money work for them, but they have their money doing many different things simultaneously.

For example, this vehicle, as part of a strategy, and overall holistic approach, can have protective measures, defensive measures and then also can provide the opportunity for offensive capabilities as well. I'm a former sports guy so I talk about, and when I coach, I talk about protecting the goal line and then a defensive system and structure across the field, and then offensive things. The same way this could be utilized as part of a strategy in your own finances and in your business life.

Seth: Interesting. Well M.C., I really appreciate this man. This has been really, really helpful. I know we've covered, definitely not all there is to cover but we've covered a lot of ground here. Do you have any suggestions if somebody wants to dig deeper into this? Do you have any resources you want to share or, don't you know? I know we talked about the Nelson Nash book that is so popular in this specialty, but is there anything else?

M.C. Laubscher: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, Mr. Nelson Nash is one of my mentors too.

Seth: Oh, cool.

M.C. Laubscher: He's a great man, I've learned a lot from him and that book, “Becoming Your Own Banker”, I think, has been one of the things to not just, it says on the cover of the book, “Unlocking The Infinite Banking Concept” but it's unlocked a lot of minds to open it up for a lot of opportunities and possibilities.

So, if you're interested, if listeners are interested in this, that book is a recommendation. There's a new book out that if someone's truly interested in learning, all they have to do is reach out to me and I'll send them a copy of the book, the book is called “The Case for IBC”. And it's based on the boot camps done of explaining this concept and going into detail of just exactly how to use it in different kind of cases and examples. I could send that out to your listeners. All they have to do is reach out to me, info@producerswealth.com.

And then also there's a course that I just completed, actually, that takes you from a person that's never heard of this concept or from any of these strategies to going through everything - From the bottom up, taking and walking you through the different steps. They can access this course at yourownbankingsystem.com. It's yourownbankingsystem.com.

So, if you're truly interested and just exploring and learning, my mission is to share everything that I know and reach as many folks too. So, reach out to me for the book, info@producerswealth.com and also check out that, it's a free course that they can sign up for at yourownbankingsystem.com.

Seth: Awesome, yeah, we'll be sure to. I know we've mentioned a number of things. I'll be sure to include links to all this stuff in the show notes for this episode which you can find, if you're watching this on YouTube you can see it beneath this video, or if you want to check out the blog it's retipster.com/25. That's forward slash two five. Yeah M.C., I really appreciate your time man. It's great to have you on this show.

M.C. Laubscher: Yeah, I appreciate it. Thank you so much. This has been fantastic and your questions were really, it's great questions and I think there's a lot of folks that might have that same questions if they looked into it in the past. Yeah, I'll just sign off by saying these two things that I keep saying is, “You're the asset. Nothing will ever, ever be the asset outside of you. You're your number one asset”. Real estate, all these other things are assets because of you, because of the strategy that you implemented and because of the team members that you have working with you. This has been fantastic so I appreciate you having me on and I appreciate the opportunity to talk about this and addressing all the questions.

Seth: Awesome. Thanks again man, we'll talk to you later.

M.C. Laubscher: Thank you!

Seth: And there you have it folks. That's the whole conversation. As you can tell there, we covered a ton of information. There’s a lot of stuff to digest and just think through as you're trying to figure out whether or not this fit into your financial future in any way.

Again, I'm not here to tell you that this is what you need to do with this. This is actually more for my own benefit, to be honest because this is something that I just found fascinating. And I definitely think there's something here probably for me, it's just a matter of me deciding, “Okay, when do I want to do this? How much do I want to fund this kind of policy? What exactly would I be using it for?” And that kind of thing.

Because I can tell you when it comes to buying it, another piece of real estate, it would be kind of nice to borrow that money from myself, not have to worry about getting pre-approved, not have to worry about some mortgage lender has a lien on my property, not have to worry about any of that stuff. And when I do pay that money back, guess who it goes to? It goes back to me.

So, I think it's a pretty big financial decision because again, it's not cheap to fund one of these policies depending on how much money you want to be able to borrow from it. And first and foremost, don't forget that whole life insurance is all about the death benefit. If you don't actually care about that, if you don't want that, or if you're not somebody who really borrows money that much in the first place and you have no need for that then frankly, I mean, in my opinion, the Infinite Banking Concept doesn't really address any of your problems because you don't have the borrowing issue that IBC aims to solve. So that's just another thing to keep in mind.

But personally, being somebody who buys real estate and who definitely does have the occasional need for loans to do that with larger properties, debt is something that will probably always be in my life on some level. So as long as it's going to be there, I might as well take more control over that.

Anyway, that's just part of my thought process. I hope you got something out of this. Again, you should totally go and check out the show notes for this episode where you can find a lot more information and helpful links to resources that help explain the Infinite Banking Concept. So, if you want to explore this on your own in the future and decide whether or not this is something you do or don't want to do, I think you'll find a lot of help there. So again, that's at retipster.com/25.

While you're there, you actually may notice that the REtipster blog looks a little bit different than it used to. And that's because I just have a huge, huge overhaul of the website. I've been working with a marketing and branding and a website development company in Toronto called Pixel Dreams that just does some amazing work. And they've been working on overhauling this website and adding all the features that I've always wanted to have in it for the past, like four or five months. It has been a huge project we've been doing behind the scenes and we just launched the new site.

So, there's a totally new look and feel and a lot of new functionality that I'm hoping will make it a lot easier for readers and viewers to find the stuff that they care about the most. And it's going to be faster and have a lot more cool features. So, if you haven't seen the new site, definitely go check it out and let me know what you think about it. We put a ton of work into this and we did it at all for you dear listener.

So, thanks again for listening and tuning into the show today. Thank you so much for your time and attention and for being a loyal or first-time follower of retipster.com and the REtipster podcast. Wherever you are in your business and your life, I wish you all the happiness, all the success in the world because you deserve it. You really do. So, thanks again. I'll talk to you next time