Seth: Hey everybody, how's it going? This is Seth Williams and you're listening to the REtipster podcast. Today I've got a really cool opportunity to talk with a member of the Land Investing Masterclass community named Josiah.

Josiah had a pretty cool land deal not long ago, where he was able to make a whopping $68,000. Now, in my mind, when I hear $68,000 from a land deal that clearly falls into grand slam territory. And this deal originally, it's not like it started out as an assignment and ended up going in a slightly different direction, but we're going to get into that in just a second here.

But in this interview, we're basically just going to walk through how this big deal materialized. I was going to talk about Josiah’s experience so far in the land business, what other kinds of real estate investing he has been up to in his career and as always, we're probably going to walk away with a lot of new, helpful insights that we can apply to our own businesses. Josiah, welcome to the show. How's it going?

Josiah: Good. How about you?

Seth: Very good. Yeah. So, I know a little bit about your story, but for people who have never heard of you, maybe you can give us your 60-second story about who you are and what you do and what your real estate experience looks like.

Josiah: Well, my day job has been as a touring guitar and keyboard technician for the last about 16 years. And I started investing in real estate as a side hustle. I guess, really 2009 I bought my first single-family home, rented out all the bedrooms because I was gone all the time. And then I started buying a small multi-family property in 2012 and do those as long-term rentals and the multi-families. And then my wife and I have also bought a couple of small multi-families that we do short-term rentals in as well here in the Tampa Bay area. So, we did that and then found the land investing space and I'm really stoked on that right now.

Seth: Awesome. We were talking just before we started the recording here, but you said that your first campaign, was it like eight or nine months ago? Is that right? That's about how far you're into it so far in terms of time?

Josiah: Yeah. I think November 10th was the first like that, was when I hit send and clicked them out.

Seth: Gotcha. We're recording this in June of 2021, so it hasn't been that long, but you've already made a lot of really cool headway. And tell me about this guitar and keyboard tech career you've got. Are there any notable bands that I would know about that you've worked with or anything like that?

Josiah: Probably the most popular band I've worked for and still work for full-time is a band called One Republic. They'd probably be the biggest. I've worked for New Kids on the Block. That was another really big one.

Seth: In my mind, that is the pinnacle.

Josiah: That was pretty crazy. I did one tour with them in South America and it was wild. It was one of their kind of comeback tours. Maybe it was almost 10 years ago, but that was crazy. It was really cool. They were super nice and the crew was awesome.

Seth: Crazy in what way? Like screaming girls or something?

Josiah: Yeah, yeah. Actually, I think in some of the shows there were probably almost 20,000 people there and I don't know if there was one male in the audience. I think it was all females at those shows except for maybe security guards or something. Other bands that I’ve worked for a long time that are bigger would be Paramore or Taking Back Sunday for a long time. I've worked for a lot of bands where I'm kind of just filling in for a few shows. That's kind of common as well, where I might just go and work for a band for three shows, just to fill in for a friend of mine or something like that.

Seth: I remember the first time we talked, back when you were first just thinking about doing land at all, and you were telling me some of these bands you worked for and a couple of them I didn't recognize because I'm not super hip in the music world anymore. I used to be years ago, but I was telling my wife some of these band names, I'm like, have you heard of these band names? And she's like, “Yeah? You should be embarrassed for not knowing who they are.” She always tells me like it is.

Josiah: That's funny. Yeah. I remember you were asking me about it because you'd watched some Dallas Green videos of the guitar tech for U2. I think you were telling me you would watch them. And I think maybe we had just done a tour. One Republic had just done a tour supporting U2. And that was, I mean, that was crazy. That's like the next level, everything was crazy.

Seth: If you ever had any horror stories as a guitar tech where a person's guitar goes out? So, you basically have to tune people's guitars, right? Make sure everything's sounding perfect and everything's dialed in just right.

Josiah: That is probably the most important part of the job. Yeah. There's a lot more, but that is making sure the guitar works and it's in tune is arguably the most important. Actually, there's a venue near where you live, I think, or maybe it's closer to Detroit. I think it's called the GTE or DTE music center. It's like an amphitheater.

This is forever burned into my mind, but I was doing a show, this was when I was working for Paramore. I think this was 2010. I was still quite green. I remember the guy that I was tech-ing for. It was like right in the middle of a guitar solo. Like all the lights were on him and that venue, everything is sloped really steeply downward. So, you could see everything on the stage. You can see the floor of the stage, everything really well, the whole audience. And his guitar cut out. And I couldn't figure out what was wrong with it. And I was just in full-on panic mode. It was terrible. And that show was sold out with 12,000 people. Luckily, he's a super nice guy and he did not fire me that night, but it totally would have been justified to just fire me and get someone more experienced. But luckily, he chose not to do that for me.

Seth: You have been doing this for 16 years you said? Was that when you were newer to the profession when this happened?

Josiah: I didn't really start really trying to do an amazing job. Honestly, it was probably after that experience, because that experience, I'm telling you that it's burned into my brain. That was just the most horrible feeling ever at that point in my life. And I was just like, “That's never going to happen again”. I just can't. And I haven't had what I would consider a bad show since then. Now I'm extremely paranoid every single day about checking everything 10 times, I have tons of checklists for all the guitars, the pedals, the amps, the cables, and I'm just super paranoid about making sure everything's clean and organized and just checking it all every day. So, I haven't had anything like that since then, luckily.

Seth: I heard about—I don't remember if this was Bill Gates or some big CEO—but there was some issue one time where one of his employees had made a $600,000 mistake. Like they totally screwed something up and the person didn't get fired and they were asking him, “Why didn't you fire that guy?” And he was like, “Why would I fire him when he just got a $600,000 education that I paid for?”

Josiah: That's awesome.

Seth: Because you probably would not really have that again. And it's super-valuable experience and education.

Josiah: No, no, never. I don't think I ever had, I mean, I've had some problems or maybe little mistakes, but nothing even remotely close to that, that was just terrible.

Seth: You have been doing that for 16 years and also doing real estate on the side in some capacity since then. It sounds like with the multi-family properties and the rentals and that kind of thing, it's been a good thing that you can sort of manage from afar or do on a part-time basis when you're not there. Does your wife have to play much of a role in this or is it all your thing?

Josiah: It's mostly me. For a couple of years when we first got into doing some short-term rentals, she would handle the management of our first unit. It was in our backyard. It was a mother-in-law suite. So, she would handle the management and did all the cleaning and turnovers for that. So, she did that for a couple of years, but now she helps a little bit, but that's one thing I think we've realized. She doesn't really have any interest in doing real estate-related stuff. My wife is a full-time yoga teacher. That's what she wants to do. That's what she's passionate about and what she's great at. I'm sure a lot of people have realized that listening to this podcast it's like, you should do what you're interested in and not try to force it.

Seth: Yeah, makes sense.

Josiah: Man, I've been fortunate though, as far as traveling. For many years, my dad was the property manager for all of my long-term rentals. And that's been great because nobody's ever been a better property manager than my dad. He would watch out for the places just like I would, treat them like they were his own. So, it's hard to beat that service.

Seth: It’s hard to find really good help from people who will care as much as you do. So, if you can find that and if they're willing to hang on to them. Since you've started in the land business, you live in the Tampa area, is that right?

Josiah: Yeah. I live in Tampa, Florida.

Seth: So, have you been working mostly in Florida? Or what states have you been going through for the most part?

Josiah: Just Florida. It's funny because I had read all the stuff in the course and I heard on the podcast you can do this anywhere, you don't have to live nearby. But I guess I just felt like I wanted to try it right here. If I want to drive out and see something, I can, which I have done a few times. So yeah, I've been really right in my sort of corridor of Central Florida, which has also been nice because since I'm a real estate agent, I have MLS access to all the counties that I am working in currently. And that's been really nice, like saving me a lot of money in negotiations, on a few deals, just having that MLS access.

Seth: So, one quick question, have you found it useful at all to physically go to these properties yourself and look at them? Or is that totally unnecessary or do you just do it for fun? What are your thoughts on that?

Josiah: I think there hasn't been any deal where I've driven out to look at the property where it actually mattered. It was kind of just more for my own, like the largest dollar amount deal that I've done so far. It just gave me some peace of mind to go out there and walk the property and just see the surrounding neighborhood.

One of the counties I've been doing a lot of business in, I have some good friends that live in that county, so one of them I've been paying her to go and do my photos for me and to check out properties before I actually sign the closing papers. Like once I get something under contract, I'll send her out, she'll take photos and it's great because she makes like $75 for an hour of work. I send in somebody out that I trust, I don't have to worry about somebody like faking photos.

I would say driving to the properties, it hasn't mattered. And in all of those cases, I could've paid somebody to do it, but it was just like, “Ah, I want to do it. I want to go see it.”

Seth: In the MLS access thing, that sounds like a significant advantage. Would you say that's like a life-or-death thing or trying to gauge how critical that is or if it's ever worth a person's while to become licensed and join some kind of brokerage just to get that? Is it that big of a deal or just mildly helpful?

Josiah: Nah, I don't think so. I'll give you one example of where it's been great to have it. I'm under contract for a deal right now. The seller and I were going back and forth negotiating and I'll use the real numbers. I think I was offering $4,000. He wanted $10,000. And I'm looking at it thinking like, “Well, I'm going to sell it for $10,000.” And maybe there's a way to get this without having MLS access that I'm just not aware of.

But I was able to look and see, like if you looked on Zillow or Redfin, the previous listing was not shown. It wasn't shown that this property had ever been listed before. But then when I looked in the MLS, it had been listed for $4,000, like last year and it didn't sell. And I think the reason it didn't sell it's just because it wasn't marketed at all. But just doing that, I was able to then come back and say, “You listed this like a year ago for the price I'm offering and it didn't sell. So, what gives?” And now I'm under contract to buy that property. I haven't bought it yet.

So, in that particular case, I'm not sure why the previous listing data wasn't available on Zillow or Redfin or realtor.com or something. It just wasn't up there, but it was in the MLS.

Seth: It goes to show just every little piece of information is helpful to a degree. Like even just looking at DataTree and understanding like, “Hey, who's the neighbor or what kind of road access is this? Or what's in the backyard or where does this person live?” All that stuff plays into the narrative so you can know who you're dealing with instead of just walking in blind. So, to the point that it gives you more information to work with, I'm sure that's super helpful if you can get that.

Josiah: There was another one I just remembered. Actually, I'm listing this property today. It'll be listed for sale, but it's a vacant lot. It's a mobile home lot. The previous listing from 2005, in the realtor's remark it said something about, there is a septic tank on the property. So, that was the only way I was going to find that information. And for me, I'm just going to advertise that. I guess I got to be careful how I advertise that because I'm not saying that the septic tank is any good. It's not like I've even gone there myself to check it out.

But I do kind of subscribe to that philosophy that anything on the property, like even if it's a piece of crap mobile home that probably needs to be demolished, I'm of the mindset that that adds value to the property rather than takes away from it. Because now it's an attribute. It's something to catch people's attention.

So, to me, I think even something like a septic tank, just saying like, “Hey, according to a previous listing, there's a septic tank on this property and there's impact fee credits.” I don't know, even if it doesn't add to the sale price, it's hopefully going to get more eyeballs to just take a look and just take a second look “Oh, that's interesting. Oh, there's a septic tank there.”

And on that same property with the septic tank, there's like an old driveway. It's all cracked up and messed up now, but somebody had something there and there was a mobile home there at some point a long time ago.

Seth: Yeah, it is an interesting thing. I don't know of a whole lot of actual cases where people were sued for misrepresenting something in a listing. Because you got to believe this happens all the time where people are either straight-up lying or they're saying something that's like a half-truth or it's kind of like the septic tank thing. It might be there even though it's actually a liability because it's inoperable and you have to dig it all up and start all over anyway. But I wonder if you're just literally stating a fact there is a septic tank, I can't say anything technically wrong with that. You're just saying what it is, I guess it is up to the person to verify that fits what they're looking for.

Josiah: Yeah. And I guess if you're selling it on as-is contract and on disclosing, “Hey, I'm a licensed agent and I have not even been to this property so do your own due diligence.” To me, it just seems like I'm not doing anything, I'm staying away above board as far as ethics and it is vacant land, go check it out for yourself.

Seth: Have you been getting any kind of a disclosure statement sign when you're selling properties? Just to say, “Hey, it's been up to you to get up on your own survey and you're not going to come back and sue me for anything,” and yada, yada, yada. Have you ever gone through any of those steps at all, or no?

Josiah: I've self-closed on some acquisitions, but not on the sell side. The title company has them sign up COVID-19 disclaimer, which is like, it's vacant land, but we're doing a mobile notary close. I think I'm covered there. And I know they have them sign a survey affidavit. I forget what it's called, but where your buyers are electing to not get a survey. And that survey is going to be an exception to the title policy. So, I know they're signing that kind of stuff.

Seth: If you ever have any doubts about that you could always use the disclosure statement in the Masterclass course. And it's something that I've given to my title company a lot. I just said, “Hey, throw this in your pilot documents and get it signed.” And it's one of those things, it's probably not going to be a problem, but if you're actively worrying about something, it could be worth doing.

Josiah: Have you ever had anybody come back and say, “Hey, you misled me”?

Seth: No, the only time somebody sort of did that, but they were wrong was when I sold them property and their neighbors said, “Oh yeah, I own over here onto your property.” And they didn't know what they were talking about. And so, I ended up ordering a survey just so the guy could go out and stake where the corners are and to confirm, “No, you don't, this is the property.” So, that it's kind of dumb on my part. I paid for the survey on my own, just out of pocket to take care of the issue and resolve it. It was totally their responsibility to do that. And they signed something to that effect. But in my mind, I wanted the problem to be resolved. I didn't want them getting all mad at me and stuff. I don't even know if you call that an issue, but that's the only callback I've ever gotten.

Josiah: Yeah, that's great. From all the deals you've probably done over the years to that be the only thing that kind of speaks to the business you’re doing.

Seth: I'm pretty conservative about everything. I try to over-communicate and really highlight problems to the point that it probably kills deals for me, but I just don't want them to be caught off-guard or surprised and that kind of thing. Anyway, maybe that's part of it.

So, I've heard that Florida is becoming a busier place for the land business. Have you bumped into any other land investors? Is that a common issue you've encountered and has that caused problems in any way?

Josiah: I don't think it's caused any problem. Maybe I've missed out on some deals. I'm not sure. I've talked to some sellers where they're getting blind offer campaigns but no, I don't think so. I have not started sending out blind offers yet, but I'm going to figure that out soon because I've just been mailing a tax delinquent list. I remember discussing that with you towards the beginning of me trying this and we've talked about it a few times, but I think so far all of the tax delinquent lists I've worked with, they've been such a pain to get, and then to work with the data.

I think I'm probably filtering out a lot of competition by doing that, but it also takes me a lot of time. And I ended up looking at, I'd say probably 19 out of 20 deals I looked at, I can't do because the back taxes are more than what the property is even worth. Or the owner of the record has been dead for 30 years and I'm talking to their nephew and there's no will. And it's a lot of that kind of stuff.

I'm working on two deals right now, or I'm trying to make that work because there's enough meat on the bone where it's worth the time and the effort, I think in my opinion. But you run into a lot of those. So, I'm kind of at the point where I'm like I'm ready to start trying this blind offer thing. It seems like you hopefully eliminate a lot of wasted time.

Seth: Yeah. I'd say for sure. That’s for a track just to know what you're dealing with. Like what's on the other side. Like, is this actually easier or is it more competition this way? I would imagine, this is pure theory, I don't really know this, but I would imagine you'd probably be more likely to bump into other land investors because that's just easier and that's what a lot of people are doing. You're probably right to a point that most people aren't willing to go through all the hassle of dealing with the delinquent tax list. But I don't know, I guess you'll find out if you give it a shot and you can kind of decide from there if it's worth paying that way.

Josiah: Yeah. You said something to me in an email a couple of months ago, I can't remember everything, but it really summed it up really well about the fear of competition. You were talking about a parcel you owned maybe in Colorado and you said there was one month where I got five offers and it's like, “Well, okay, I guess there was a lot of competition that month, but then all the other times I never got anything. So, maybe there's competition for short periods of time.”

Seth: Yeah, I still own that parcel and it's weird. I can't even tell you the last time I got a blind offer on it, but it's in a county in Colorado that has always been a hot spot. So, there are waves, I think, where for sure you can have the misfortune of bumping into other people, but it doesn't mean you're going to lose a deal. And it also doesn't mean that there's like a permanent flow of competition there. It could just be like a one-month, out-of-the-year kind of thing. And how do you gauge that and predict it? I have no idea, but it's hard to definitively state this place is saturated or competitive or whatever. And even in the places that are, deals are still being done. It's not like it kills the business. It's just kind of “Ah, shoot. Oh, well,” that kind of thing.

Josiah: Another thing I've thought about in relation to his is, there's a lot of deals I've looked at that are where maybe I'm passing on them where it doesn't mean there's no money to be made. It's just like, I don't have the bandwidth for this. Or even in my first couple of months, I dropped the ball on several deals where it was like, my phone was ringing so much and I couldn't keep up. And I know that those leads went cold and maybe those people went and just called the next place and sold their property. Or even if there was more competition, it's like, well maybe when I get deals where there's some weird probate situation, maybe I could work on that instead. Like if there's more competition, maybe you just kind of start doing more difficult deals sometimes.

Seth: Yeah, for sure. That’s actually surprisingly not uncommon. People just won't even pick up their phone or they won't respond to people. They don't check their email. It's like, they're literally just flushing money down the toilet by sending out tons of mail and not doing anything with the leads that come in. So, just the presence of other blind offers does not mean that you can't get that deal. It just means somebody else is maybe doing a horrible job of trying to find their deals.

Josiah: I made the mistake, my wife and I went on a two-week vacation in January and we had internet and cell phone service, but it wasn't very good. And I thought that I was timing out an offer campaign, like a neutral letter campaign. I thought I was timing it out well so that I would start getting calls like maybe a couple of days after. I sent it to standard class mail, which I had read generally takes two to three weeks to hit inboxes. And it started hitting mailboxes within a couple of days.

So, I started getting a bunch of calls and emails while we were on that trip. And I was like, “Oh no, I'm on this vacation.” But my wife was really cool about it. I kept up pretty well with those. I would work for maybe three hours every morning. I would just try and I feel like, okay, I'm going to catch up, call everybody back. And so, it ended up being not too bad, but even still I dropped the ball on a couple of deals that fell through during that, because I just didn't want to work the whole time while I'm here with my wife.

Seth: Yeah, totally. So, on that subject, being that you are a traveling guitar tech who sometimes you're away for months at a time maybe, is this something you're able to do on the road? I know it's something you can do on a part-time basis for sure. But how does that work when you're working and not near your stuff? Do you just need your laptop and phone and that's enough to get the job done?

Josiah: You mean for land specifically? Well, I haven't done it yet really on the road.

Seth: You started doing this since COVID started, right?

Josiah: Yeah, exactly. COVID and then you discounting the course is what kicked me in the butt to start doing it. I'd been on the fence for a while, but I'm sure that I could. I've been gone for 10 days and maintained. I was working on deals the whole time. It was definitely harder just because sometimes when I'm gone, I might work 12- or 14-hour days. So, I'm calling sellers back on lunch break, just doing my best but it's definitely doable. For me, I think it would get pretty hard, maybe touring internationally and keeping up, but I'm sure you could do it if you're motivated enough to do it.

I can't remember the lady's name, but I've seen her on the REtipster Facebook group and she's a mom with three kids and she had a photo up of her with like the laptop on the stroller and I'm just like, “All right, if she can figure it out.” I think her name is Jenna maybe or something, but I don't know. I was like, if she could figure it out with all she's got going on, I could figure this out while I'm on the road or "What's your excuse?" that kind of thing.

Seth: As the concert is playing and as the guy's guitar is playing, you’re like “Sorry, I'm talking to a motivated seller right now.” Awesome, man. Well, that's cool. Yeah, I guess if that happens at some point, let me know how it goes. It would be interesting to know is that doable or is that impossible. It was always interesting to hear from people who are in those challenging situations, or maybe not even challenging but different, and figure out how that affects the business and vice versa.

Josiah: I think if I was going to go out for a couple of weeks or if I was going to go overseas for a few weeks, at some point I need to just consider I haven't done anything with PATLive yet or something like that. But at some point, I'd need to figure something out like that. Because what's a couple of hundred bucks a month if it gets you one more deal per month for paying somebody to answer the phone? So, at some point, I'll probably consider that, especially if I'm going to travel.

Seth: So, let's get into this $68,000 deal. I think the first time you had ever mentioned anything about this, I don't know if it was Office Hours or the forum of where I first heard about it, but this was going to be an assignment deal. And basically, just means you're not going to buy it yourself. You're just sending the purchase agreement and then you sell that piece of paper to another buyer who ends up buying it. So, your money is never involved. You never even take the title to it. You just make a big chunk of cash. And that's a lot of money to make from an assignment deal. But it sounds like it didn't actually pan out that way. Maybe you can just tell us, how did you find the deal? What was the property like? What made it such a unique opportunity?

Josiah: It was a four lot. The sellers got one of my letters, called me, and told me they wanted $60,000 per piece. I looked up recent comps and found four of basically identical lots in the exact same subdivision that had sold like three weeks before for $82,500 per lot. And I looked at these ones and these ones honestly seemed superior to those. They were on a cul-de-sac. The other lots were on busier roads. So, I was like, “Well, who wouldn't want a cul-de-sac over a busier road with double yellow lines?”

And I started calling around home builders. One of them I got ahold of, I got ahold of the land acquisition manager. I was probably naively trusting, but the guy just seemed like a really good guy. And I don't know, I wasn't worried about him like, “Oh, we're going to steal the deal from this guy.” So, I actually sent him the APN numbers and he said, “Oh, we could pay $80,000 a piece for these lots.” And so, I already had a sale price of $60,000. So, I was like, well, yeah, okay. I'm going to buy these clearly. It was that easy.

And so, then I got them under contract. I guess the risk that I took with this deal was, the sellers wanted a hard escrow deposit. So, I put down $12,000 of my own money, like hard. It went hard immediately, I think it was the terms of the contract, but I didn't have a signed contract from my buyer yet, but I just knew looking at the comps in the area and other home builders were super interested. I was like, I'm going to be able to move these things if I have to with the market being so hot down here.

Seth: When you talk about looking at comps for land, I know a lot of times when you're talking about land comps, they aren't actually that useful because there's not an apples-to-apples comparison, the comps for land are different, but this were for infill lots. So, there were actually very, very similar comps to work with, which is not always the case. In fact, many times it's not the case. So, it sounds like that was a pretty critical component to you understanding what it's actually worth and being confident in that.

Josiah: Yeah. It wasn't like, “Oh, this is five acres of agricultural land, I’m not sure about the zoning,” or whatever. It was within the same gated subdivision. They were quarter-acre lots. Just quarter-acre infill lots on a paved road. So, that made it much easier to value them.

Seth: Would you not have been able to see these comps data without MLS access?

Josiah: Actually, that's what I was going to say that was interesting. I did not have MLS access yet. I wasn't a real estate agent at this point. This was back in like January or February. But what was interesting is these comps were on Propstream, which does have some flaws from what I can tell. They were on Propstream, but they weren't on DataTree yet. And I don't even think they were on the property appraiser's website yet. So, they must have been into a recorder of a controller's office at this point. Like, I don't know how else Propstream would have had them, but somehow, they weren't on Zillow. I don't think they were listed on the MLS, these properties.

And I've run into that a few times where Propstream has a recent sale comp that everywhere else doesn't have, for some reason. DataTree, RealQuest, TitlePro. And so that really saved me as well. That is what I guess lit a fire of like, “Hey, I got to look into these really fast, I got to figure this out.”

And then finding there are so many active home builders in this area. So, I just called down the list until I found one. Really, it was this acquisition manager that I contacted. Because I got an offer at a slightly higher price for the lots from a different home builder, but this guy, we're friends now. We're hanging out Friday morning. But I just got a good vibe from him that I could trust him.

I asked him at one point, I was like, “Hey, you can clearly tell I have no idea what I'm doing here and I’m way over my head. Why are you so nice to me?” And I don't remember exactly what he said, but he just gave me an answer that made me feel comfortable to continue working with them and not consider any of the other potential buyers for the deal.

Seth: Just something I'll mention, because I know we basically did a little commercial there for Propstream. REtipster does have an affiliate link for Propstream. If you guys ever want to check it out, it's retipster.com/propstream. That'll take you right there. I think it's $97 a month or something like that. And I took one look at it. So, I can't say I have a ton of experience at the time of this recording, but I know it's a pretty widely used and well-respected software for house wholesalers and that kind of thing.

And I believe they've added some land functionality to it as well. But for a lot of the stuff that land investors historically anyway have been looking for, Propstream didn't seem to quite have it dialed in. But again, this is from like a year ago when I last looked at it. So maybe there's something new about it. But have you found that to be a pretty invaluable service for you?

Josiah: That one deal paid for my Propstream subscription for life. Could I have done it without it? Yeah, I guess so, but I don't know. The day that this call came from the seller, I was really busy. I think I was closing two deals that day, like sales and I don't remember, I had a bunch of other stuff going on. And I think it was just the ease of being able to… Because if I hadn't seen any comps that were of such exact like, because I dropped everything that I was doing that day when this came in. 

So, I don't know, for me, I'm not sure how you feel about this. I'm also a member of the Land Academy as well. So, I've got RealQuest and TitlePro and DataTree and Propstream. And so, it's like, do I need all of that? Maybe not, but I don't know. Sometimes I use the county appraiser's website. Sometimes I want to go on one of those services. They all have different sorts of features and functions.

One thing I do, and I'm sure you can do this with other services, but on Propstream I like the feature where it makes it really easy to export a CSV of public record sold comps in a given area. And so, that has been really nice as well just to download it. Especially if it's an area that doesn't have Redfin data, then it's really nice being able to just download that CSV so easily.

I don't know if other services do this, but they distinguish between multi-parcel and single-parcel transactions, which is also really nice for looking at your comps and seeing, “Okay, well these were multi-party transactions.” And then at that point, maybe I'll go on the appraiser's website and download the deed and see what parcels were on that transaction. So, that has been really good for that too.

Seth: I know that's not an uncommon thing at all in my land for lots of deals to change hands at once. Yeah, I know what you mean. I've got the same thing where I've got access to a bunch of different things and I kind of gravitate toward some and not the others, but sometimes you just second guess what you're seeing from one of them. And you're like, “Hey, let me see what this one says.” And it's just nice to have that available.

Josiah: I'm using NeighborScoop as well. That's been great. It's nice having all of it. It's fun to play around with the different software and interfaces.

Seth: So, this a land deal, it sounds like you found one of several home builders that was happy to buy it from you. And you intended, or you went into this thinking it was going to be an assignment, but it ended up not being an assignment. What happened to that?

Josiah: One thing I learned from this deal is that home builders, especially if it's like a publicly traded company, which my buyer was on this, they are incredibly strict on crossing every T and dotting every single I in their due diligence process. And it was cool. I mean, honestly, one of the things I've saved from the deal is all of their title commitment, what's it called? Their title commitment rejection letter, their whole process for everything. It was really impressive, but it really slowed down the deal, like the amount of almost nitpicking that they had. And every single back and forth, you could tell that their attorneys were reviewing the paperwork.

And then, it was a lot, it was over the top. It would take too long to go over all of the details in this. But basically, that was happening a lot. And it really started pissing the sellers off really because of the back and forth. We got to a point where we were going to have to delay the closing and the sellers were just like, “Well, we'll do another day or two, but otherwise we're done.” And it was almost a matter of principle for them, which I understand. They were looking for a quick no-hassle sale and that was kind of not what they were getting. So that was at the point where I was like, “Okay, I'm just going to buy this.”

So, I was fortunate enough I got a home equity line of credit. I already had that lined up years ago and have a lot of credit with a local bank here that is really cool. Actually, if anybody's in Tampa, check out Bank of Tampa, they have unsecured lines of credit that they'll do for people and it is really good terms. I don't know if it's okay to say that to advertise a specific bank, but that came in really handy. So, I was able to use those lines of credit and then some savings that I had. And I ended up just buying the properties myself and then ended up holding on to them for, I think it was like two weeks, maybe three weeks that I held them. And then, the title company just kept the binder on the desk, so to speak, and then just went and turned it around and sold it to my buyer.

Seth: Were you nervous at all about doing that or were you pretty slam dunk confident you knew what you were dealing with and wasn't a problem?

Josiah: Honestly, there was part of me that was almost if the buyer had backed out, I almost would have been maybe a little stoked because I'm pretty sure I probably could have listed them for $90,000 apiece and sold them quickly. The market had probably appreciated a few percent just in the two months that this process was going on. So, if they had backed out, I would have been stoked, I think.

Seth: Given the higher value or given the higher amount that you had to put into it, was there any crazy due diligence you had to do? Did you do surveys and I don’t know, whatever testing on this stuff? What was all of that?

Josiah: Yes. We did surveys for everything.

Seth: Did it cost a lot of money, whatever you were doing?

Josiah: No, it wasn't. I have a survey company here that treats me where they give kind of an investor rate and because all the lots were adjacent to each other. So, no, it wasn't too bad. I think they charged, it's like $1,200 to do boundary surveys on all four lots, so not too bad. My buyer, they had a geotechnical analysis done. So, they came out and drilled some samples. That was nice. I didn't have to pay for that. They foot the bill for the survey or the soil testing.

Seth: I am at a geotechnical investigation. I'm actually dealing with this myself as well. I wasn't even familiar with that prior to this year.

Josiah: Is this the same property, the same one you were telling me about?

Seth: Yes, the same one.

Josiah: Okay.

Seth: For those out there who don't know what that is, it's just sampling the soil. And the main idea is to find out load-bearing capacity and soil types, just to make sure there's not like a bunch of water beneath the surface, anything like that. So, it's a pretty important one if you want to start building an actual structure on the site, just to understand you're not going to invest tens of thousands in a structure that's going to fall apart because of bad soil.

Josiah: I think that's especially important probably here in Florida, probably Texas as well, because of all of the sinkholes. In this area, in particular, there's a lot of sinkholes near where these properties are. So, I think they're kind of looking at that. And I think one of the other things I was reading and talking to the buyer about was, I guess in vacant lots like this, he was saying that sometimes you can have high levels of arsenic that can build up. We didn't get into it. So, if I'm wrong on this, somebody let me know. But I think what he was saying is that you can have high levels of arsenic in vacant infill lots, specifically where the grass is being mowed regularly. I have no idea why that would be the case. I don't know anything about that, but that was something that they're also testing for, is any heavy metals or toxins or arsenic, lead, that kind of stuff there.

These homes that they're going to build on there, there'll be probably $700,000 ti $800,000 homes by the time they're built and sold. So, they want to make sure that they have a perfect product for the retail buyer that ends up owning these.

Seth: It sounds like from the day you found out about the deal until the day that you ended up selling it to this end buyer, how much time elapsed through there?

Josiah: From the day that I signed the contract, the purchase agreement to the day I sold it, probably maybe 10 weeks, something like that. I want to say it was about 10 weeks.

Seth: And really the extent of your effort expended towards selling, it was just calling up builders specifically. Did you even list this on a website? 

Josiah: Nope. I didn’t list it at all. Just phone calls. 

Seth: Yeah. It goes to show the power of picking up the phone, just talking, and having real conversations. I've had similar things, in my case, usually listing it is the first thing I'll do, just because it feels easier. When in reality it's probably, I don't know, that's necessarily true. It takes a lot of time to create those listings, but I've had properties where I've listed them for a long time. And when I finally pick up the phone to call a builder then they sell. Maybe we should just start with that, especially with infill lots that are buildable, that are plotted out exactly for that purpose. It might make sense as a first move.

Josiah: That's actually another plug for, I didn't have NeighborScoop at the time, but another plug for NeighborScoop is the ease of getting phone numbers of surrounding property owners. If I had it I could have just been clicking on the vacant lots and seeing, okay, this isn't the buyer, but could have seen, okay, Lennar Homes owns this or whatever. I mean, I guess for Lennar Homes you're going to be able to find the phone number pretty easily online, but for your smaller local builders, some of these smaller builders, they don't even have a website. 

And so, I was going on to sunbiz.org, which is like our corporate registry, I guess, here in Florida and then looking up, okay, who's the registered agent and then skip tracing the registered agent and going about it that way. But with NeighborScoop, you'd be able to just do it. It just saves me time to get those phone numbers, which is pretty awesome.

Seth: Yeah, cool. That’s good to know.

Josiah: Actually, when you list property, how do you decide if, okay, this is worth listing on the MLS or what venues you're going to list the property on?

Seth: I've had a different approach to this than a lot of other people. So, I'm not saying this is right. Depending on the market, if you've got a good land specialized agent that you're working with, that might be a good default just because they have the connections and they're going to work hard and get it done. But I haven't had as good of an experience with agents. Usually, they're not motivated. They just don't get it done quick enough. But again, that's my unique experience.

And so, usually my default is just to start on the free websites like the Facebook marketplaces and Craigslist and Zillow and that kind of thing. And I give that a few months and a lot of times it'll sell just doing that, but if it doesn't, it takes a pretty big push for me to enlist the help of an agent. Like I have to be really confident that I'm not capable of doing this on my own. And that rarely happens.

More often than not the agents I've got involved with, I've been able to solve a thing faster than they can. So, it's like their involvement really doesn't add anything in terms of value. It's just who knows? Maybe they'll find something I'm not seeing.

But I know in Florida specifically though, there seems to be easier access to good land agents anyway, at least I know that's what Jaren has said. And I've heard a lot of other people working with agents now. So, it might have something to do with, if you're working in an area where there are lots of land transactions happening, there's probably more agents who are familiar with land deals. So, maybe it's easier to find them there.

Josiah: Yeah. I don't know. I’ve called a few agents about properties that I was looking at, I'm selling one right now where I was asking agents what they would list it for. And if I could even get somebody to call me back, it's like, they were telling me, “Oh, this isn't worth $2,000.” And I think this property in particular, I already have just from phone calls, not even listing it, I already have like two offers for like $12,000 just from making phone calls to neighbors and stuff. And it's kind of like, well, I guess the agents I called didn't really know what they were talking about.

Seth: Yeah. And I think there are some things you can do to figure out if this somebody I should pay attention to or not. Like looking at their historical listings on Zillow and are there any land deals there or is it just houses? But what you're saying there though, I mean, that's part of the course for me. And maybe it's because I haven't done a good enough job of making sure they were land-experienced first.

But if you just call up some random agent, there's a very high likelihood you're going to be talking to somebody who you shouldn't really be following their advice. They don't really know what they're talking about. So maybe you'll get lucky. But I'm wondering with this deal, if you want it to replicate this again, what would you do? Or was a lot of this just sort of luck that just kind of fell into your lap? What do you think?

Josiah: It's definitely some luck because since I'm just blasting out neutral letters and postcards to the tax delinquent list currently, it's like, you don't know what you're going to get. So, I don't know. I guess if you were going to replicate something like this, probably some kind of blind offer campaign I would imagine would be the best way. I don't know if DataTree has a polygon tool…

Seth: Yeah, they do.

Josiah: Maybe use a polygon drawing in a specific area and then pull all of the vacant lots in that area and just blast out a campaign. I think if you were going to replicate something like that, I assume that would probably be the most efficient way to get more of these.

Seth: The way I phrased that question, there probably isn't a way to say, it's kind of like saying, I will go out in the lake today and I'm going to catch a 50-pound fish and it's going to be brown and it's going to be a trout and I'm going to catch it in this section of the lake. It's just not how it works. You cast your nets, you throw the line out, you see what happens, you take your limited information and do the best you can, but ultimately there is luck involved. But luck comes from being out there and being at the right place at the right time.

Josiah: I remember asking you a couple of months ago, it's funny, the questions when you're new, and I'm still very new, obviously I’m green, but a lot of questions that I had initially are just not questions anymore. It's kind of like, should I send mail this way or this way? It's kind of like, just sending out mail, right? It's kind of funny. I feel that's from all of the different land podcasts and courses, that's kind of like the central sort of lever. The most important lever that you can pull is sending more mail. Within reason, of course, if you have the budget for it. Because then you're going to look at more deals. It's like casting more lines, right? To use your pond analogy. Or you're using a net now instead of just casting one line or two lines out.

And it also allows you to be pickier. If you have a pipeline that's jammed full of potential acquisitions, then it's going to be easier to make only good decisions because now you're not chasing after any one deal. You have more to look at than you even have time for. I think that's almost a good situation to be in because now it just kind of flips the whole script of, you're the buyer chasing after deals. It's like, now that the sellers are coming to you, they're chasing after you, which is a much better place to be.

Seth: Yeah. My wife and I have been watching this show called “Life Below Zero.” It's all about these people that live up in Alaska and live off the land and they don't use much money at all. All the food they kill and that kind of thing. But it's interesting because of the fall of these different families around, and one of the big food sources out there is caribou, which is basically like reindeer. That's what it is.

Josiah: That’s awesome.

Seth: But as the cameras are following these people around, they'll explain yet we normally would go up here in the mountains, but the weather's in there, which is going to keep the caribou out. It's going to keep them in this section. And they run through at this time of the day, at this time of the year. So that's where we need to be to get our caribou. And it's like, you just don't know that unless you've been doing this for a long time, or if somebody has really carefully shown you everything. And even then, you still don't know it until you've experienced it yourself.

And it kind of has a similar thing to play any business, but in the land business in particular, because there's a lot of things that, like you said, you think you're asking the right questions but once you get this big database of knowledge in your head and you just have this understanding of what does and doesn't work, you can start asking much better questions and taking a much more targeted, more likely to be effective approach.

Josiah: There was something you said at an Office Hours webinar a couple months ago, and it's like, I'm telling you it's in my weekly, I have sort of inspirational quotes and important reminders that I just have them programmed so that they kind of pop up randomly in my calendar every so often. And one of them though is something you said. It's like something to the effect of, when you start taking action, that's when the real questions come. And that really struck a chord with me when I heard you say that, because it's like, “Oh yeah.” Like before I started, I had all these questions and then now a lot of those I've realized are just kind of like, “Oh, I can just delete those off my questions list.” Because I've got this whole new set of questions now that I'm really in the weeds.

I use REI Conversion for my websites and I'm using Pebble as well. And it's funny, Jessey, on one of our first phone calls, he was kind of saying the same thing. You just need to send, just get like a thousand letters out or whatever, just get some mail out there and then get yourself a little overwhelmed. And then you're just going to figure it out. You can't obsess about every little detail before starting, you got to start.

Seth: You can really tell that in our forum and Facebook group, you can tell who's doing stuff because that's where the best questions come from or the best dilemmas or insights. And so, yeah, those questions just don't pop in your mind until you encounter stuff that you can only encounter by doing it.

So, actually, it's a similar thing to college I feel like. College in so many ways, I don't want to say it's pointless, but when it comes to actually performing in your career. Like my wife is an accountant, it's kind of like this mental stress test to prove that you're smart enough to handle really complex concepts, but you don't actually learn any super applicable stuff until you get into the job and do it. And then it's like, “Oh, okay, now we're getting to the next level.” So yeah, education certainly plays a part, but getting out there and doing it, that's like 90% of it.

So, you mentioned at one point that you're in the middle of a deal that's wrapped up in a lawsuit of some kind, what's going on in there? What’s the story there?

Josiah: That one is pretty funny. It's a pending lawsuit right now, so I got to be careful what I say, but basically, the shortest version of it is, I put this property under contract with the intention to buy it myself and then market it. I ended up running out of acquisition funds. Or not running out of, I think it just got to the point where it was a six-figure purchase, this property. And I was like, I shouldn't be throwing all my money into this. And even though it's a really great deal that I had an appraisal done on the deal. I had it under contract for well under the appraised market value.

And so, with that one, I ended up deciding to assign the contract. On this one actually, the contract is assigned to kind of like a pretty large, private equity firm that buys real estate. And I remember how I found that out. I was just making phone calls that are, again, like just the power of getting on the phone. And not being afraid to sound stupid when you don't really know who to ask for whatever company.

But eventually, I got a hold of a decision-maker at this company and sent them a spreadsheet on the deal. And this one, I had like an appraisal done, a wetland delineation, a survey. I spent a couple of grand on due diligence because of such a large purchase. And so, I had all that. So, I think that really helped for me to be taken seriously that I had this whole due diligence package put together that was professional and I had skin in the game.

And so, I assigned the contract. I ended up assigning the contract to this firm. And then four days before closing, the sellers call me to tell me that they're not going to do the deal. They're going to back out. I told them, I was like, “Hey, I have assigned this contract, just so you know. And I know my buyer is probably going to sue you for specific performance on this deal.” And they just said, “Bring it.” I was like, okay. And I'm on great terms with the sellers. On my primary point of contact, we built a good rapport on the phone and mutual respect. We basically lined everything up to close. The title company looked at it and said, we have to perform here.

Basically, we went through on the buy side, everything went through as far as closing, but the sellers just didn't sign anything. They were supposed to and didn't show up to closing. And so, the following day, one of the attorneys for this firm filed a lawsuit. And I guess basically they're suing these sellers for specific performance. Currently, there's like a pending zone on the property and I think like a memorandum of contract as well.

Seth: Do you think they are going to win it? Is that to be expected?

Josiah: Yeah, I think so. Actually, it's probably a good thing for me to share this for other listeners to keep in mind, you can learn from my mistakes. The thing they are trying to use to back out of the contract is, I screwed up with my dates on the calendar and I deposited my escrow linked on this contract. So that the contract was supposed to be deposited within 15 days. And for whatever reason, I put the wrong date in my calendar. I thought I had 30 days to get an escrow in. So, I deposited it late. I think I deposited it after like 17 days. So, they're trying to say that the contract is null and void or whatever they're trying to say that I didn’t want to perform on the contract.

The attorney for my buyer is saying that is a completely non-material reason to back out of a contract because after they knew that the escrow would have been deposited late, we were continuing to carry on as if they were still planning to close, they even signed an extension addendum for the closing. After that period of time, I think they also signed some paperwork that was giving me permission to have soil samples done or something like that. So, everybody was moving forward in good faith.

And so, learn from my mistake, if I hadn't deposited it late, it might've not even been an issue because they might've not thought, “Oh, we have a way to back out.” Or maybe they would have just started to back out anyway, who knows? I think what happened is somebody came along and gave them probably a much higher offer for the property. So, they're just trying any way they can to get out of it, which I understand. And if it were me alone, maybe I shouldn't say this on air. I don't know, but I probably wouldn't sue over it. To me, it's not worth it. I'll just go do another deal. I'm not going to sue them and get wrapped up in all this over. But my buyer does not, they don't play around with that kind of stuff.

I think they sort of feel like, “Hey, we have a reputation as a whole that we follow through on our contracts. And we force the people who we go under contract with to follow through.” And they have investors that they're looking out for as well. So, I think they kind of have a duty as well to do that.

Seth: Did you say how much you're going to make from this deal, assuming it goes through?

Josiah: If it goes, I think my net will be like $10,000 or $11,000. I think something like that, which I'm pumped about. I'm not going to complain. I think that's after my expenses, my assignment fees are higher than that, but after the cost of my due diligence and all that. So, that'll be interesting, we'll see. At some point, maybe I'll just get a surprise check on that one. That'll be cool.

Seth: Yeah. Well, it's interesting. I'm kind of like you, where lawsuits are like the nuclear button. I don't even know what it would take for me to do that, but it would take a lot. Like there's not the default thing, but I've never actually talked with any land investor who got in that specific kind of situation where the seller wouldn't sell or something like that and how you force them to do it and that kind of thing. And also makes you wonder, assuming the seller loses the lawsuit, does the court deed it on their behalf or do they force them to come in and sign the deed? What if they're just like, “No, I won’t sign the deed.” How do you force it out of their hands?

Josiah: I don't know how that works. Once you lose a suit for specific performance I don't know, if they then said, "Okay, well, we're still not going to sell." I don't know if you just have a right to file a lien, like a permanent lien on the property. I'm not sure how that works. Or maybe they do actually. I don't know, maybe the court does actually force the transfer of title. I'm not quite sure how that works. It'd be interesting to see.

Seth: Well, I know we went past an hour, so I'll try to wrap this up. It's just been such a great conversation. I appreciate you talking to me about it. As we kind of close this up, I know we've talked about a lot of different software and websites and those kinds of things that have been helpful to you. Has anything else been particularly useful just in business and in life as you've been trying to do your career and also do other types of real estate and then you do land as well? Does anything come to mind as particularly useful for you?

Josiah: Yeah. There are a few books that I think everybody should read just in general and they're not specific at all to the land space. There is a book called “Getting Things Done” by David Allen. It’s basically a workflow methodology. I won't explain it all on here because you could look up YouTube videos that are going to explain it a lot better than I do. But basically, it's a workflow methodology for how to process all of the stuff of life. And the stuff of life could be a land deal that you're working on, or it could just be a reminder to get cat food.

And I think one of the things that's really helpful about it is the idea of separating your tasks by context. So, not so much separating them by priority or anything like that.

You can prioritize within the system, but it's like, I have contexts within my getting things done system of, "Okay, these are all actions that I can do when I'm at my computer with an internet connection. These are all actions I can do if I'm on my computer without an internet connection.” Which for me, with traveling, that's really helpful. So, I have a predefined list at all times of “these are all things that can work on,” a list of phone calls that need to be made, errands. I have an agenda list. So, I have an agenda list with my wife and with my boss. You can look it up, look it up on YouTube, “Getting Things Done.” It's great just for parsing out all of that stuff.

And then there's also a book called “The Four Disciplines of Execution.” And another one that I think ties in really well with “The Four Disciplines of Execution” is called “The 12 Week Year.” And for me, I think kind of one of the main themes I've taken out of those books is the idea of lead measures and lag measures or lead metrics and lag metrics.

So, in the land business, a lag measure might be how much net profit you generate quarterly. And you can't directly influence exactly how much profit you make a month. But what you should do is look and say, “Well, what measures could I take action on that are going to lead to the lag measure that I'm looking for?”

So, for me, with my land business, the number one is mail. The number one and number two are just sending out more mail and then just spending time on the business. For me right now, I'm just trying to make sure that for at least four and a half hours a day, I'm just at my computer just thinking about my land business, making calls. I don't even have tasks defined, but it's just putting in those lead measures. And my belief is that those will lead to the lag measures I'm looking for. So those two books, “The 12 Week Year” and “The Four Disciplines of Execution.”

And then, the other one is “Deep Work” by Cal Newport. I think that's just a phenomenal book. I read that like four times last year. Everybody should read that book. It's just great. It'd be easy to read it and see how you can apply it to your business, to your life, how to be less distracted. Have you read that one?

Seth: I haven't, but I've heard Brandon Turner talk about it. He mentioned that when we interviewed him. I'm familiar with the overall concepts. I probably should read that but I haven't yet.

Josiah: It's great. I'm sure you would love it. Yeah, it's great.

Seth: That deep work stuff, that's where really all the best stuff happens in your working life. And it's so important to figure out how to get that uninterrupted time. And especially over the past year, people working from home and stuff, I don't know how people have been doing it unless they have some kind of dedicated office for themselves.

Josiah: Yeah. For me, I think my best time to do it is early in the morning. And then it's funny, you have a video about this, but having a fan, like a loud fan in my office, is really helpful for white noise. So, I don't hear the hustle and bustle in the house, and having these headphones on with maybe white noise or music on it makes it easy to not be distracted.

But I find, for me, that earlier in the morning, I can get it done. It kind of sets the tone for the day. It's like exercise or something. It just kind of sets the tone. And then also if you're getting your most important tasks done early in the day, then it just makes it easier. For me, it just makes it easier to relax for the rest of the day. Or if something comes up, it's like, “Oh, I'm not stressing because I already got that campaign in the mail or I already returned to those phone calls or did the due diligence on these properties.” It's like, that is done. That was the most important thing.

And now everything else, email can take over the day for a little bit if it needs to, or if something fun pops up to go and do, I can go and do that. But yeah, I keep those books in my office, even though I'm looking at them every day and just kind of being reminded hopefully of the concepts in those books on a daily basis.

Seth: Yeah. I got to add all those to mine. I think I've read “Getting Things Done,” but I haven't read the other ones, but great suggestions. Thanks again for talking with me. I really appreciate it. And thanks for being part of the REtipster community. You've got a lot of really good questions and posts in the forum and your input in Office Hours. That was really good. And it’s just great to have somebody with a mind who thinks the way that yours does. And also just to see the success you've had so far.

Josiah: Man, thanks for freaking doing the course. Geez, look, it's just been life-changing for me, honestly, doing the first couple of deals just completely flipped my whole mind around as to what's possible in life and real estate and business. I mean, the course is just perfect.

For anybody who's on the fence, Seth didn't ask me to say this or whatever, but it's just laid out so well. I emailed you about it a couple of weeks ago of how even the videos and the sections that you repeat throughout the course, it's awesome because it's like a disclaimer. Like you have a section, the same section, copy and pasted in multiple modules in the course, but that's so helpful because now it's like the steps are laid out. It just makes it so much easier for somebody who's totally new to it to come in. It's awesome. But yeah, it's been huge. In the first few months of doing this, I've made more than what I would make in like a whole year of being gone on the road. So, it's changed my life.

Seth: That's amazing. That's really cool, man. I'm really happy to hear that. If people want to, reach out to you or visit a website or anything, you don't have to share anything, but do you want to? And if so, how would they get ahold of you?

Josiah: My email is just [email protected]. And I hope it's okay if I say this. I'm a real estate agent in the Tampa Bay area. I work with Tyler Sheff from the Cash Flow Guys podcast. He is a marketing and negotiation genius. And so, if you're ever thinking about buying or selling property in this area, we can help you with that. Feel free to reach out.

Seth: Yeah, I'll go ahead and link to the Cash Flow Guys podcast and website in the show notes. This is episode 105. So, you can check out the show notes at retipster.com/105. We'll have all the information there. But thanks again Josiah, it's a pleasure to know you. I’m glad we could talk here and hopefully, we can talk more as your business progresses.