Seth: Hey everybody, how's it going? This is Seth and Jaren and welcome to the REtipster podcast. Today we're interviewing Kyle Marcotte. Kyle is a unique guy because he's got, I think over 120-units under his belt valued at over $5 million and the guy is only 21 years old. Jaren get connected with Kyle on LinkedIn recently. It was pretty inspired by his story and what he's been able to accomplish already at such a young age. We wanted to invite him on the podcast to figure out what it takes to make so much progress so quickly this early in the game. Without further ado, Kyle, welcome to the show. How are you doing?

Kyle Marcotte: I’m doing great. Thank you for having me.

Seth: Maybe you can just start by telling us your story. When did you get into real estate investing and what was your first step?

Kyle Marcotte: Yeah, so I was a student at UC Davis actually and I was studying pre-med and neurobiology and trying to do that whole route of 10 years of school and potentially being on call and not having very much free time. But making a little bit of money and having MD next to your name. I kind of was going at it for the wrong reasons. I wasn't necessarily passionate about medicine. On top of that, I was playing Division I soccer at UC Davis, so the course load on quarter systems at the UC where all is very challenging as well as being a student-athlete. And I just really was an entrepreneurial person in general. I'm not very good at taking direction necessarily. It's always been kind of a flaw, but I'm using it as a strength now, which is nice.

Basically, I was just really unhappy with what I was doing in school and decided to just try to find something else. I didn't really know what I was going to look for. And then I read a purple book called “Rich Dad Poor Dad”, which I'm sure everyone has read it at this point.

Seth: I’ve never heard of that one.

Kyle Marcotte: Never heard of that one, right? But it really definitely changed my life. It put kind of words to those emotions that I was feeling of just, “Man, I really don't want to trade so much of my time away going from basically 20 to 60 years old with no freedom”. You're just kind of working until a specific age. And I know people who haven't made it to retirement age. It's not guaranteed that you're just going to smooth sail, clean health bill till you're 65 and then you get to retire and there's these golden years. I've often heard that it's boring at that age and I just was trying to find something that I could do independent of my time that would pay for my lifestyle. I found out real estate and started off in a single-family and wholesaling world and then quickly realized that that was also a job. I eventually just told my soccer coach, “Hey man, thank you for recruiting me all the way from Texas, but it's not going to work out. I'm going to pursue this real estate thing”. And also went to the Dean's office and enrolled and then pursued multifamily real estate and six months later I did a 107-unit deal in Louisville and the rest is kind of history.

Seth: I assume that 107-unit deal was a syndication deal, right?

Kyle Marcotte: Yes. It was a syndication.

Seth: That right there, I mean that seems like a massive step. And syndications seem on the surface like somewhat of a complicated strategy because you’re getting money involved for a bunch of other people and all this stuff. I'm just wondering, is it not that complicated? How does somebody like you jumped so quickly to that step?

Kyle Marcotte: I really don't think that syndication is quite as complicated as people make it out to be. I think that that's kind of how we do a lot of things though as humans. We create a concept of something and we put it a little bit out of our reach or out of our comfort zone and then we just push it under the rug and don't really think about it too much. But syndication really, it's actually simple. It's very similar to a joint venture if you think about it. And I don't think very many people are very scared of that. It's just the word “syndication”, it’s kind of a bigger word and I don't know, it's very trendy right now. But all it means is that you're raising money from people that you know to buy an investment and those people don't have an active role. Basically, I do all the work and you pay for it and that's a syndication. That's really as simple as it is. There is some legal work, but you hire a legal attorney and you work that into the race, so it's really not as big a deal as you think.

Jaren: Kyle, I want to jump in there and I don't mean to make this little sassy so early in the interview but I have a little pushback there man because I've been trying to figure out this game for a while and there does seem to be some pretty big obstacles when you're just starting out. Number one is how do you find brokers to give you the time of day? Because a lot of commercial brokers, unless you have a track record or you're partnered with somebody who has a track record of successfully closing and being a reliable closer, they won't give you the time of day. Also, there's the whole aspect of having to have a loan guarantor who has a net worth equal or greater to the purchase price of the property. And then there's also how do you find investors to park money with you? And then how do you find the attorneys who will again, give you the time of the day to bring you on as a client to set up the syndication? All those things seem like a lot compared to what we do in land where we just send out direct mail, buy a piece of dirt and turn around and sell it.

Kyle Marcotte: Yeah. No, I totally understand. Once we start breaking those things down into their parts, I think that you'll realize that you're really not that far away as you think you are. I'm not trying to say that syndication is easy and I definitely did work really hard to get to where I am. But the thing is when you really start to break things down and take it slowly month by month, it's really not that big a deal. We can start at the broker side of things, which is basically, I have a document that says, “How to get brokers to take you seriously?” I can share that with the listeners and on my website after the show. But what we try to do is you go to the LoopNet broker directory and you take all the names of the local brokers in your area. And then you email them on a biweekly basis every week and you underwrite all of the deals that they have listed on their websites.

And then you send that to them fully underwritten with your logic and your criteria. And then you just continue to do that on a biweekly basis because yeah, if you reach out to a broker and you just say, “Hey, I'm looking for deals in multifamily”. They're going to say, “Well, yeah, you and everybody else, right?” So, you have to kind of have something to set you apart, which that something is usually really good underwriting.

Actually, really good is probably an overstatement. Just underwriting in general. Some sort of, “Hey, this deal works for me because X, Y, and Z. But it doesn't work for me here. This is why. Thanks. Looking forward to doing more business with you”. That's kind of our step one - The broker objection. And then I would move on to the KPI objection, which is finding someone with net worth. Well, it can actually be a community net worth. All the LPs in the group adding up to the net worth sending on the loan. So that's kind of another way to look at it. You can find multiple people. You don't have to find this one big shark. I think that that can kind of scare you a little bit as well.

Jaren: Yeah, I didn't know that. That's cool. So then all of the limited partners that come in as passive investors, their collective wealth can qualify for the loan guarantor requirement.

Kyle Marcotte: Yes. They obviously have to agree to sign on the loan, which may make you have to give them more GP percentage for that risk or perceived risk. That is something to consider. But yes, you can do it more of a collective approach. But the way that I go about finding people of that net worth, because a lot of people will say, “Well, you must've grown up rich. How'd you find a KP?” Well, I actually didn't. My parents are very blue-collar. Neither of them went to college. My mom is a yoga teacher. My dad cleaned pools for a very long time. The way that I built my credibility as a 20-year-old and still in school was I went to a local meetup and I slowly worked my way in with the host. The first couple of meetings I just kind of said, “Hey, I really liked your meetup. This is how I found it online”. And then I moved into, “Hey, is there any way I can do some sort of tasks at your meetup? Like maybe name tags or checking people in or helping with the camera equipment or scheduling guests?”

I just did that for about a month, two months and then I slowly started to ask, “Hey, would it be okay if I stood up on stage maybe and gave like a 30-minute presentation on multifamily?” And I'll tell you man, as soon as you stand up on a stage, regardless of what you look like or your age, people immediately just take you very seriously. Because I went from being like, “Oh, the cute kid. He checks me in and gives me the name tag” to like, “Oh, this guy's an expert on multifamily” in just a very short time. That's another thing where people kind of get intimidated or people aren't going to take me seriously. There's a lot of like little perceptions and little tiny things that are actually not that complicated that can put you well into the realm of credibility. I think that people really don't know you necessarily. They only see their perception of you in a brief timeframe and a brief little moment in space and time. If you can show up in a way that impresses someone or will have them perceive you as credible, then you can really move forward in the business quite a bit.

Jaren: I really appreciate you breaking that stuff down for me, man. I want to go back a minute to when you decided to leave school because a lot of the times in podcasts, we get these huge brushstrokes of people's past and their history. It's not uncommon to listen to somebody in here literally like 10-20-30 years of their entire life in two sentences. I want to like go very granular and I want to go back to that moment in time when you decided to leave. Because if I had a full-ride scholarship and my parents are blue-collar and I was in school and I was on track to go become a doctor and then all of a sudden, I just said, “You know what? None of this is for me. I'm going to go pursue real estate”. You had to have gotten some pushback from those that care about you and that love you, especially being so young. What was that like? What was the thinking process? What was your parents' response to you being like, “You know what? I just want to go become financially independent through real estate”.

Kyle Marcotte: They definitely were not supportive at first. And for the first six to eight months of this real estate thing, it was pretty brutal. I had a really, really hard time. My roommates, the people I was living within college, they didn't like it either because that made them feel like, “Oh, you don't need college? What do you think, you're smarter than us?” Even my closer friends were not on my team. My brother, he did the whole school route and then he's an account at EY right now. He's also very much into the realm of W2. He was also like, “What are you doing man?” And my parents, of course, they were very upset as parents get. They get worried and they don't really know what's happening. That was kind of a really big obstacle for sure. But I felt so guided at the time. I'm not going to tell you that I had some master plan. I really just knew that in my heart that there was something else I needed to be doing and I really kind of blacked out for like a very long time. Like almost like six months of just blacking out and just doing what my subconscious mind kind of was telling me to do. It was something that I really can't go back in time and explain, but I do have kind of a funny story to kind of summarize the whole timeframe.

The way I was thinking was basically the way that I actually got my first big break in real estate. I went to Jacksonville from Sacramento to a meetup or a conference where I actually met the two partners that I did my 107-unit deal on my 12-unit deal with.

But the way I paid for that plane ticket was just sheer hard work. I basically knew the conference was happening two months out or three months out and there were only people hiring in my community. My college town of Davis was a senior living facility up the road. It's about two miles bike each way. And it was early year, January, February. It was really cold in Northern California. They had me work in the 6:00 AM shift because that was the only shift that was available - 6:00 AM to noon. Your job is to come in, clock in and help wake the older citizens up, the people who live there. It's really hard for a 90-85-year-old person to wake up in the morning and that's your job. You have to help them go to the bathroom and use and wash and stuff like that.

It's exactly as brutal as you picture it. But it was the only place hiring and I knew I needed to be able to pay for this plane ticket. But long story short, after almost two and a half months of working there, it was a great lesson in empathy. But it was definitely not ideal. I was able to actually afford a red-eye ticket to Jacksonville. It connected in Dallas and Charlotte and I ended up getting there 9:00 AM, the event said that noon that day. Then I ended up meeting the two partners. It was just like this weird place where I wasn't really thinking. I was just really taking action and then all of a sudden thing were lining up in this crazy way that wasn't me. I just feel extremely blessed and guided and super grateful every single day that those things happened because I really was taking a leap of faith. Getting a weird job at a senior living facility that I wasn't really happy with, but just doing it, something was telling me to keep going. Something was telling me to keep doing it every morning when I was biking in the cold at 05:30 in the morning. I was still doing my miracle morning at 4:30 AM by the way. I was still waking up at 04:30, doing my hour, leaving at 05:30, getting there.

I really had no idea what I was doing. But it ended up working out in this beautiful way that now looking back it seems brilliant. But at the time I was just putting my head down and really just following my heart. It was really kind of a weird time.

Seth: It's an interesting success story. I don't know of many people who said, I just blacked out and when I woke up, I was successful.

Kyle Marcotte: Yeah. I mean, I guess that's the only way you can describe it, man. I can't take credit for it. I guess that's what I mean by blacking out. It wasn't Kyle. It was just bigger than me, man. I really don't know how to describe it other than that.

Seth: Interesting.

Jaren: It's awesome, man. It's very inspiring. I'm over here super inspired.

Seth: You think there was some divine force or something? Or I don't know, what do you attribute that to?

Kyle Marcotte: I really don't know. I guess people would say that you have some sort of destiny and maybe you do. And maybe I ignored mine for so long that the higher power, God or whatever you want to call, it was like, “Man, you're really messing up. We're just going to take over for a couple of months”. I don't know man. You never know. But just for me, it was something like intuition but times 10. Because I had an intuition to continue to play soccer and keep doing that. And then that ended up working out. But do you guys ever have moments where you are alone with yourself and then you get these ideas that don't feel like they're coming from you? It almost feels like a lightning bolt to sit you in the head and you're like, “Oh, wow, that's smart. I'll write that down”. You know what I mean?

Seth: Totally.

Kyle Marcotte: It was just that for an extended period of time, I guess.

Seth: Yeah. Actually, I do this thing called DAWG days. Every so often. It’s D-A-W-G. It stands for Day Away With God. I was doing that a few weeks ago. It is crazy the things that will come to you in those moments when you just silence the noise and you tune in and you get these things that don't happen otherwise.

Kyle Marcotte: Exactly.

Seth: I totally know what you're talking about. I'm curious when you say you made this decision to drop out and pursue real estate, were you making any income from real estate specifically at that time? Or was it sort of just like a cold turkey, “I'm going to do real estate, I'm going to make it work starting now”? And then later on is when you actually did your first deal and made that happen.

Kyle Marcotte: Yeah. No, it was pretty much cold turkey. There was no real income stream coming in. There were some wholesaling things that were happening, but that's input and then you get output for that. That's earned income, not passive income in any sense. I didn't have any streams of income and all to support me.

Jaren: So, man, I wanted to ask, why large apartments? Because I feel like as you're sharing your story, there's a big gap between like, okay, you have this almost divine nudge to leave everything and pursue real estate. But then you know somehow to go from “I'm quitting college” to “apartment syndication”. Why did you decide on apartment syndication? How did you even know about it? Because even if you read “Rich Dad Poor Dad”, he mentions real estate in there and he mentioned larger stuff. But a lot of people read “Rich Dad Poor Dad” and they go to flip houses or they go wholesaling. And you mentioned you tried some wholesaling, so how did you get to large multifamily?

Kyle Marcotte: Well, it really just became the factor of “I wanted to be independent from my time”. That was my main focus. It wasn't about the money, it wasn't really about the material or the excess, anything like that. It was about being able to control my time and not have to focus on it. I started to look into bigger apartments and commercial in general because of the fact that once you hit that economies of scale, you can have a full-time maintenance person. I started to realize that, if I was to do homes that my initial plan was duplex is right. And then I realized I'm going to cashflow maybe $200 - $300 a month. Max a $1,000 a month from one deal and that's going to take me a long time to do. Whereas I can use that same amount of time and get a bigger apartment complex.

And at first it was like, “Okay, I'll get a 20-unit, I'll get a 12-unit” and ended up doing a 12-unit later. But I ended up not doing that first because you can't actually hire a full-time manager. They can only come maybe three times a week, two times a week. And they're usually a single-family managing company. They're not like a very official one that you can have sophisticated cloud-based software and have these weekly meetings where they're really on their stuff and they have tasks and they complete them in the properties run without you being there all the time. I realized once you break the 75 to a 100-unit mark, I started to read that that's kind of when you can afford based on the cash flows and the amount of income the property produces, you can actually start to pay someone 5% of gross income and they'll be there every day of the week taking care of your property. You can have live cloud-based accounting software and you can have P&L updates and budget updates and you can talk to them for basically two hours a week and the whole property is taken care of. That's what I was looking for. I was looking for that time freedom. I wasn't looking for being a millionaire and driving Ferrari's. That's never really been my goal. My goal has been, “Can I just relax and kind of enjoy time with my family and not have to be constantly grinding and putting my head down and working for someone else?”

Seth: Maybe we can talk about the first property you ever bought. Tell us the story, how big was it? Where'd you find it? How'd you know it was a good deal? How'd you get the financing? Let's cover all the details just so we can get a good snapshot of what that looks like.

Kyle Marcotte: The first deal I did was the 107-unit deal in Louisville. The financing was through, I believe Freddy and my partner Eli, who I met in Jacksonville. I did the majority of the detail aspect, the underwriting and he showed me kind of the ropes on that. He was an actuary prior to being in real estate, so he's very good with numbers and he kind of showed me the ropes on underwriting. And honestly, at the time I was pretty basic on underwriting. I was still using some of the more basic single-family models and he kind of showed me how IRR is calculated and the commercial aspect of underwriting. That was extremely helpful. But then honestly, my job was really just raising the capital. So that's kind of how the first deal came about from me.

Seth: Did you say that you did do some of the underwriting or you were just raising the capital and finding the money from different parties?

Kyle Marcotte: A little bit of both. I mean he definitely did the majority of the underwriting, but he taught me quite a bit in the process and we put together the business plan together and kind of understand what we're going to do with this investment. Because obviously if you're pitching to investors you have to know exactly what the deal is and what you're planning on doing to make it have the returns that you're claiming.

Seth: Yeah. I'm curious, do you have like a giant spreadsheet or something that you use for underwriting and running the numbers on this? Because I know when I used to work in banking, it seems like every bank had a different system for how they did it. But essentially what it boils down to is a bunch of questions and blanks and then you have to fill in the answer to explain why it's a good deal, why the numbers work, all this stuff. Is that sort of what you had to do as well with underwriting?

Kyle Marcotte: Yeah. We actually used the Jake & Gino Wheelbarrow Profits syndication analysis tool. It's a spreadsheet built by them and has several tabs. Like you said, you input the income and the OPEX and then it'll pop out a cashflows tab which can kind of let you know where you're looking on a yearly basis and wise. And then you can also see the returns tab and a summary of a 100k investment and things like that. It does a lot of the work for you, which is really nice. But to answer your earlier question, the reason we kind of really know it was a good deal was because the manager that they were paying was actually a relative. He was getting paid almost double the market rate for management. We knew day one we were going to be able to shave almost $30,000 off the salary for the management company. And then also they had a downed unit. We actually bought the property thinking it was going to be 106-units, but the down property was fully plumbed and ready to go. It just had a bunch of storage in there and needed a light rehab aesthetically. But it was a functional unit once it was cleaned up and that actually ended up giving us a whole another unit to work with. So that boosts the NOI quite a bit as well.

Seth: That's another just fundamental question about underwriting. I know there's all kinds of different metrics you can look at - Cap rate, cash-on-cash return, ROI. The list goes on. Which of those things matter the most and the least to you? How do you distill it all down to a “Yes, this is a good deal” or “No, it's not a good deal”?

Kyle Marcotte: For me it's probably debt service coverage ratio. That's probably the most important to me. And I know that that's contrary to most people, but I'd say that from a risk standpoint, that's what I look first because if you're at a 1.1 or you're only 10% over what you need to pay the bank back, I find that to be a more risky investment. And if you're somehow getting a high cash-on-cash return but you're very close to a debt service, it's usually just the first place to look to make sure that if a deal is skinny or not.

Cap rate matters to me a little bit less than it does to other people. I actually invest in LA with my two partners now. The reason we invest in LA is because of the low cap rate. So, a lot of people will not touch low cap rates, but in LA there's rent control and a lot of people are scared of rent control. There's a way to actually navigate rank control using buyouts and cash for key methods to where you actually, since you're raising rents so much since they're under budget from rent control, that cash for keys is actually going to boost your NOI. And then on the low cap rate it's going to add so much value in the back end that you can afford to pay someone $10,000-$15,000 to move out of the apartment because you're going to be able to raise the rent, which is going to boost the NOI and then on a low cap rate, that's going to add so much value on the back end. So, I don't really avoid the low caps.

Seth: I'm curious, what was your debt service coverage ratio that made you feel like it was okay? Was it like 2 to 1 or what was it?

Kyle Marcotte: I'd like to be at like 1.3. NOI basically divided by the debt service. So then that gives you usually a decimal point. If your debt coverage ratio was 1 you would have your mortgage is $50,000, then you're making $50,000 a year. So, you're basically 1 for 1 paying your mortgage back. I want to be at least 1.3.

Seth: And that additional 0.3 above and beyond the debt service? That's what you have to basically pay yourself, pay anybody else's involvement deal. Is that correct?

Kyle Marcotte: Yeah, it's just kind of like the buffer room.

Seth: Okay. Is that kind of like your bottom-line goal whenever you look at the deal? Like “I just want it to be a 1.3 or higher and we're okay”. Is it that simple or is there a lot more to it than that?

Kyle Marcotte: Yeah, there's typically a lot more to it and I think it goes on case by case. You have to also understand kind of what you want to do with the business plan and what the comps in the area are going to allow you to do as far as increasing rents and some of the operational rules of thumb that you have to look at. But for return metrics, just to keep it simple, I'd say we really want to offer our investors a 15% or higher IRR. We try not to stoop below that just because we want to be a premier syndication group. We don't want to be offering like the 10 IRR with really skinny deals just to get deals done. Because it really is about creating financial freedom for our investors, not necessarily just us racking up acquisition fees or anything like that. It's always focused on them. We try not to do deals that aren't going to be not home runs, but very good deals for our investors.

Seth: And I guess along the same lines of, when we're talking about debt service coverage ratio and all these metrics we're looking at, is this based on what it is today or our projections of where you think it's going to be in the future?

Kyle Marcotte: A little bit of both. Again, the answer is typically going to be yes then yes. It’s going to be a little bit more complicated, but I'll try to look at the current actuals and then obviously I'm going to take into account my first year of ownership, but my assumptions are typically really conservative. For example, in Austin, Texas right now the annual increase of rents is usually somewhere between 4% and 5% a year. We only underwrite about 3% just to keep it online with the national average because I'd much rather just not take advantage of Austin's growth because you never know what could happen. And then also on reversion cap, which is the cap rate at exit, we will try to go up at least 10 basis points a year. Typically a little bit more than that, just to make sure that our reversion cap is going to be higher than our purchase cap.

We're not betting that the market's going to keep going in our favor, we're actually going to bet against ourselves and say the market's going to get a little bit worse in our time of ownership just to make sure that if the deal still works with the market not being in our favor, then that's great. Because if you're relying on the market, then you're taking on quite a bit of risk.

Seth: Yeah, I gotcha. I guess to answer the question then, if one of these ratios was like just terrible as of today, but you were really confident you could bring it back to where it needs to be in the short term, that's still okay for you, right?

Kyle Marcotte: Yeah, I would say so. Because if something's really terrible, then it's either the best news or the worst news. You have to kind of decide if that is like for example, for us, the actual debt coverage on the Louisville deal was not very good, but they were paying a manager almost $90,000 a year just to be there when everyone else can pay about $40,000 to $45,000 a year. You got to kind of look at their P&L and see are they running it like you would run it or like the market average is being run or are they making some real mistakes.

Seth: When it came to the financing for this, like to get the actual loan to buy the thing, did you go to a local bank or how did you go about finding that?

Kyle Marcotte: No, I believe that we went to Freddie.

Seth: Freddie. That's right. You mentioned that.

Kyle Marcotte: The government agency and got a non-recourse loan.

Seth: Does that go through a bank or you just go right to a government agency to get that?

Kyle Marcotte: We have a mortgage broker. He works actually with Jake & Gino as well. He helps out quite a bit with that. We send them basically the each well, the rent roll, the OEM, and then somewhat of our business plan and our backgrounds. And then he sends it to just Freddy directly and then they handle it. But we always go through a mortgage broker because we have a good connection and he usually gets things in a good timely manner.

Seth: Okay, cool. What was the hardest part about getting that 107-unit property? And how did you get over that obstacle?

Kyle Marcotte: Probably the hardest part was we had someone 1031 into a syndication, which is a difficult thing to do. We didn't know that that was even possible when we first did it because you have to kind of be on the deed of both things is what my initial assumption was. But you can actually file a thing called a TIC or a Tenant In Common agreement because basically how a 1031 is you have to own the property that you're selling and then own the property that you're buying.

If the LLC that he was selling his properties was an LLC and let's say in Minnesota, but he wanted to buy into our syndication LLC, you can't do that because they're not the same LLC owning. But if you file a tenant common agreement on the Louisville deal with his, let's say Minnesota LLC and other tenant in commons on Louisville deal, then you can actually utilize that 1031 income. But we didn't know that until like three weeks out of closing. We had to redo all of the documents and let all of the other passive investors know that that was taking place because they have to understand every dollar that's coming in because their money is on the line as well. So, you have to tell everyone. If they get all the documents redone and yeah, that was a little bit of a scary one in the time crunch, but a good learning lesson at the end of the day.

Jaren: I want to go back to something you said about the cash for keys strategy and your deals in LA because that's huge man. If people understand what you're saying there, if I understand correctly, what your strategy is the reason why you don't care about low cap rates is one low cap rates gives you far less competition. And then what you do is you just employ a strategy where you ask tenants to leave essentially by giving them cash for keys. Is that correct? And then as they leave, you can adjust based on market rents.

Kyle Marcotte: Yeah, I would say that is correct. The only thing I would slightly alter would be the cap rates don't cause the low competition. It's actually the rent control that causes the low competition. The rent control scares off so many landlords. And you also get this situation where, let's say you own the property in LA in 1980, it's now 2020 and they implemented rent control somewhere in the middle of your ownership and you already own the building outright and you're doing all right since you bought in the 80s. And you're just kind of like, “I don't really want to touch the rent control laws. I don't really understand them. I don't care to. I'm cash flowing, I've owned this property for 20 years. I'm just going to chill”. But then if you can come in and say, “Okay, no one else is going to offer on this guy's property, but we will, because we understand that he's, let's say almost $500 under rent under the market current”. But he won't up the rents annually like he's allowed to and because it's kind of a difficult situation. But if you go in and you pay that guy who's paying, say $1,000 and the rent is $1,500. If you just pay him $10,000 to move out, then you can raise his rent $500. 500 times 12 is your annual increase in a NOI. And then you can also divide that on a cap rate, which is divided by 0.04 in LA most of the time or 3.5 so that ends up being quite a bit of value on the backend.

Jaren: That's a really savvy strategy, man. Listeners, I hope you're paying attention because that solves a pretty big issue with going into rent control markets. It's like really, really smart. I want to touch on cap rates as well. You wrote an article. We're going to link it at the show notes that you can find at retipster.com/64. I found that the article was very helpful, but for our audience, Kyle, do you mind just giving us the cliff notes version as to why cap rates are not as big of a deal as a lot of people think?

Kyle Marcotte: Yeah, so I think that cap rates aren't necessarily the biggest deal because they're not only a function of value, but they're also a function of risk. If you think about a three cap to be extreme, that's probably going to be on the beach in San Diego and there's a lot of intrinsic value on a beach property in San Diego. People are always going to agree that living on the beach in San Diego is a valuable place to be. And I think that that's something that people overlook is the fact that a low cap doesn't always necessarily mean bad. In fact, you kind of often get what you pay for in a sense, at least in a market sense for sure. There's obviously some gray area there. If you're buying a C-Class property in the Midwest at a four cap, that's something to be a little bit concerned about because that market doesn't have intrinsic geographical value. But if you are let's say for my example in the middle of LA, half a mile from the Staple Center, you can kind of assume that that's a valuable area. It's one of the highest populated places in America and it's right in the middle of the downtown area, so it's not necessarily going to go anywhere. There's going to be foot traffic there for very long time and you can kind of understand why you're paying that premium and then realize that on the back end your NOI, if it's a lower cap rate, you're going to get more value on the backend for NOI increases.

Jaren: Very interesting. That's gold, man. I really appreciate you sharing that. So, guys, go ahead and check out that article because that's a really, really big insight. Factoring in intrinsic value. A lot of the times people just don't even think about that.

Seth: I actually had a similar thought. I was trying to analyze a self-storage deal a couple of weeks ago and the cap rate like, I get it but I don't get it. I mean if the deal cash flows, if it covers the debt service, if it's a good deal, why does it really even matter what the cap rate is? Because that's based on what other properties are selling for in the area. I sort of understand what that has to do with mine, but at the same time, if the deal stands on its own, why does it matter that much? Just like an interesting tidbit, but it's not like I need to make a decision based on that.

Jaren: I 100% agree. That's a really big insight because I know a lot, especially as beginners, people will kind of like, “Oh, you need to buy on a 10 capper”. And I think that's a little bit outdated. I don't think a lot of people are buying that 10 caps in today's market. But if you read back a few years ago, a lot of people like a lot of articles and stuff from Jake & Gino and a lot of that was going around was “Hey, I only buy on 10 caps. I only buy on 10 caps”. So that's really good insight.

I wanted to go back before we move on and kind of touch on how you found your partners because you said that you went to this event in Jacksonville and you met your two partners. But here's my big question because I just got back from the best ever conference like literally yesterday. I met a lot of really cool people. It was very beneficial but it's not the same thing as like within the course of a few days I found people to give me a chance to partner with him. I have some people who said, “Yeah, if you have a deal bring it to me” and they might turn into that. But that's a really big deal to be able to go to an event for a few days and then walk away with two partners. I want to take some time in the interview to explore that. How did you convince them? Especially being so young and not having a lot of real estate experience, how did you convince these two partners to bring you on and let you do stuff in exchange for writing out the GP?

Kyle Marcotte: Number one, I think that just a preface, what I'm about to say is I was very honest with them and I just told them exactly where I stood. And the fact that, you're right, I didn't have very much experience, but I'm young and I'm willing to do whatever it takes. I flew here on a red-eye, I got here three hours ago kind of thing. I definitely have a unique story that does stand out, which does benefit me for sure. And in those settings where people are all similar age in their 30s and 40s to 50s and then the 20-year-old walks into the room. That definitely does pay advantage. When people tell me that my age is somewhat of a disadvantage, I'd argue that it's honestly somewhat of an advantage. It's almost like kind of coming in there with like a pink cowboy hat on, everyone kind of sees you immediately because of the fact that you are younger than everyone. I'm significantly in the room, but also, I'm really into following up. I think following up is extremely important. I spend at least half the time I was at the conference following up. If I went to a conference for six hours, I'll spend three hours following up and then I do some things with my business card that hopefully make me stand out. I try not to have any colors or anything on the back. I want to blink back with writeable texturing on the thing and I want people to be able to take notes on me when they're talking to me. And I also like to put my picture on my card to make sure people remember me. But I mean all of that little psychology stuff aside, I'm 20 and I just stick out like a sore thumb. It definitely does make my job a little bit easier. I'm not really sure how to give you advice on that aspect. But I really was just extremely transparent and honest and I think that that honesty really is the best way to go.

Jaren: One follow-up question. What value did they perceive you to be able to bring to the table? Because this is a question, one of the presenters or one of the vendors had a meetup at best ever. She was taking questions and I asked her straight up like if primarily people are bringing deals through broker relationships and brokers won't give me the time of day, what value could I bring to the table? I’m completely new to apartment syndications. I don't have a network. I don't have investors chomping at the bits that are accredited. How do you bridge that gap without having to buy into an existing mentorship program? Because that's why those mentorship programs exist. Because you can spend $20,000 to $50,000 to join into a network that already has brokers and insurance guys and mortgage guys, etc., etc. But if I don't want to go into that direction, then the gap between beginner and first deal is to find an investor who's already sophisticated, already experienced that you can partner with and add value to. But the big question mark, what value can you bring?

Kyle Marcotte: Yeah, that's a great question. I try to focus a lot on adding a lot of value prior to attending an event. I'd actually been working on a local meetup as I was saying earlier, just getting the check-in’s done and then I started to give seminars. Neal Bawa, I actually ended up sponsoring that meetup. It was just a round table in Sacramento and it ended up getting sponsored by Neal Bawa. He has a bunch of meetups that he kind of absorbs throughout the country and he ended up absorbing ours while I was a main speaker and had my own little section called “You can do it”. I gave a motivational speech for 5 to 10 minutes every meeting. I ended up picking up a lot of contacts there and then I met a guy who ended up investing a large chunk into the deal. I kind of knew I had him on a big soft commitment before going, but that was really just because before I went to the event, I knew I was going to be able to add value in that way. I was telling people when I met them, “Hey, the way I can add value is I currently am a main speaker at Neal Bawa, it’s a meet up in Sacramento. I speak for 5 to 10 minutes every week and getting some decent feedback. I have X amount of soft commitments and I'm continuing to follow up and I'm trying to build my investor list every day. And then on top of that, I'm 20 years old and I've taken the initiative to fly across the country. I've told them the story that I've left everything that I had behind soccer, which was my passion since, 5 or 4 years old all the way through 20 years old. I played at the highest level in college and I gave that up for this. And I also went to a pretty good school at UC Davis and gave that up as well just to pursue this. There was no hesitation of them being like, “Oh, well, he'll be gone in a week”. It was like “This kid is committed and he's already getting some stuff done. I'd love to give him a chance”. That was kind of my value.

Seth: I'm curious Kyle, have you ever taken any aptitude assessments? Are you a genius or something?

Kyle Marcotte: No, man. I can tell you my GPA was very low actually. In high school I had a 3.2 and in college at Davis I think I was 2.7. I’m not at all an aptitude test guy. if I was taking IQ exam, I'm sure I'd be in pretty average. I think I just work really hard and I grew up very blue collar. Jake & Gino called blue collar work ethic, but I definitely have that. My dad always told me kind of something that some of my dad is, he basically would say his mentality is that if he's going to get on a treadmill and someone gets on next to him, he's going to get off second or he's going to die. I kind of took off that mentality as a kid and that's just kind of how I was raised. And yeah, I’m definitely not a genius though. I grew up a little bit dyslexic and struggled in school and I was kind of known as kind of a dumb kid who was just kind of a jock. I was just good at soccer. I was kind of stupid.

Seth: Yeah, because I was like you are, I did pretty bad in school as well. I did take an IQ test at one point in college and got a 133 which is pretty high. It's not like genius territory but it's up there.

Kyle Marcotte: I think 140 is genius territory. You're pretty close man.

Seth: But the thing is, I wonder if you might be like that too. Just because it doesn't translate into great grades, it doesn't mean you're not a brilliant person. I just listened to you talking about your understanding of underwriting. You know this stuff really well. You talk about it better than many professional commercial lenders who are twice your age that I've known. I feel like you've got this unfair advantage in the intelligence department. Just listen to you talk.

Kyle Marcotte: I appreciate that.

Seth: It might be interesting if you ever do take a test, let me know what you get.

Kyle Marcotte: Okay, I'll look into it, man. I almost don't want to take it now because I'm sure that it won't be as good.

Seth: Let’s just assume you are a genius.

Kyle Marcotte: Yeah, let's just leave it. Let's just assume.

Jaren: But it's true man. There's actually a lot of correlation. A lot of people say that it's B and C students are seeing these students that end up owning businesses that hire A and B students. Like our entire education system is built to produce really high performing employees. They're good but they're good at a particular type of function. The entire system, if you think about it, is all about taking orders and producing results. Like “Do this homework assignment, take this test and turn it in for a grade”. I would err on the side of Seth man. I think that you definitely, you can just tell that the way that you think and also the way that you engage emotionally is kind of high up there. It's kind of mind boggling for you to be able to accomplish what you've accomplished at your age, man. So, my hats off to you.

Kyle Marcotte: Thank you guys. That means a lot man. It really does.

Seth: Yeah. That doesn't just happen. You don't just wander into that kind of a success. So that's pretty cool.

Jaren: We've had a lot of other guests in the syndication space and another asset classes and you're one of the more articulate guests that we've had.

Kyle Marcotte: Wow, guys, this is great. Yeah, I'm just trying to soak this in and I don't want to deflect it. I've been reading a lot about deflecting compliments and I've tried to just practice on taking them in. So, I appreciate it guys.

Seth: That's actually another great skill. I know a lot of people who cannot accept a compliment. They just go silent or they just brush it off and throw the comment right back in your face. It's a good job accepting a compliment.

Jaren: This is just turning into how amazing Kyle is, man.

Kyle Marcotte: Yeah, thanks guys.

Seth: When it comes to syndications, would you say that that's easier or harder than buying properties on your own? What kind of obstacles are most common for those getting started in the syndication world? And how does that compare to buying a single-family rental or a duplex and taking the thing down yourself?

Kyle Marcotte: Syndication is definitely more difficult I'd say than doing your own duplex alone. But I'd say that the reward is larger for the amount of time that you would do as syndication. If you're putting in one unit of time for a syndication, you're getting five units of reward. And if you're putting one unit of time in a duplex, you're probably getting like 1.2 in reward. It's like if you take that ratio, you'd much rather be doing syndication with that trade off. The common pitfalls or syndication is mainly the aspect of the legal and the SEC regulations and understanding that you're not breaking those guidelines and that you're establishing a preexisting relationship with someone prior to being under contract and you're not soliciting the market with social media posts and things like that. You have to genuinely meet these people and establish a preexisting and substantive relationship with them prior to contract, which is kind of a difficult narrow like weird waters to traverse. It's all legally at the end of the day and confusing. Because what is preexisting? What does that mean and what does substantive mean? At what point is it considered that? That's kind of confusing. And then also you have to then worry about losing other people's money, which is tremendously stressful and much more stressful I'd say to me personally than losing my own money. I'd much rather lose millions of my own money than lose hundreds of thousands of someone else's. It's pretty intense to have other people's money on your back.

Seth: Yeah, that would freak me out too. I'm sure there's a way to get over that, but I don't know. I'd have to be really, really sure about what I was doing. What would be your biggest advice for somebody who's looking to get into apartment syndications? Do you have any one liner’s or “do this” or “don't do that”?

Kyle Marcotte: Yeah, I guess I'd say get involved at your local meetup and meet the host. I think that a lot of people go to meetups in their local community and they spend a lot of time communicating with the other members of the group. But those people are in and out each week and some of them are new and some of them are not and you are kind of rolling the dice on who you're meeting. You can guarantee that your investment of time will be best spent if it's allocated towards the host. And if you can develop a relationship with the host, then everything else kind of falls into place. I kind of have a system where it's like meeting number one, you tell the guy how you found his meetup, because that's a value add right there. It gives him valuable feedback on his marketing. And then number two, the second meeting, you bring a friend and you tell him that you got a lot of value from his meetup and now you brought a friend. Now you're bringing people to this meetup and speaking good about it in public. That's another value add. Then number three, you would start helping him with his meetup tasks, like name tags and sign in and camera equipment and things like that. And that's number three. And then as you do that third step for a couple of weeks, then you start to build a better relationship with him and you realize that he has gaps in his speaker lineup. It's hard to find speakers every week at a local meetup. Then you just say, “Hey, I know that no one speaking in two weeks. I'd love to just stand up there for 10-15 minutes and talk about what I do in multifamily”. Immediately you're very much credible in your local area, which starts to kind of play this snowballing effect where, “Oh, I saw you speak at that meetup. Oh, Joey said that he saw you speak in the meetup”. And then it starts to kind of expand outward and you become kind of more of an expert in your local market rather than just some guy who goes to the meetup.

Jaren: This is what I'm talking about Kyle. Like that's so simple yet so effective. I'm looking back, all the times that I've been at meetups and I've just been like annoyed at being there because I'm like, “Oh my goodness, I'm talking to just some other newbie” or like, “Oh, my goodness, this is so awkward to network”. But that's such a practical path towards networking with the host because I was going to ask you a follow up question to be - How do you get the host's attention? Everybody is vying for their attention. How do you bridge that gap? You go with the mindset of, “Okay, I'm going to look for opportunities to stand out and add insane amount of value”. That has to come from showing up consistently and actually being involved. I think that's the first step. But second to that it's like it's not that hard. His goal is to grow his meetup. If you can give him insight onto what's working and what's not working and then you can actually bring friends and then you can step in and help fill gaps - It's so genius. It's awesome.

Seth: Actually, I had one follow up question on the public speaking thing when you were able to present. The reason this comes to mind is because I have a friend back when we were in our mid-twenties, he was trying to become a public speaker. Like somebody who did this on the regular and get paid for it. But the problem that I think he sort of had with the situation was that being so young and what he was talking about, people were just like, “What do you have to say that I wouldn't already know? I'm 20 years older than you. Why would I listen to you?” I'm curious, what did you talk about Kyle? And how did you get educated and get credibility on what you were going to be presenting on?

Kyle Marcotte: Well, first I'd like to address that objection, I guess is the word I'd use. Everyone's thinking that, right? I'm aware that everyone's thinking that so I try to address that with the opening kind of line of my speech. If you are a younger guy listening to this in your 20s then I'd say immediately come out and say something along the lines of, “Hey, I know what you guys are thinking. There's a 20-year-old up here. What the heck do you know? You probably don't even own your own car”. Or something like that. Just make some sort of a joke, get the laughter going. And that immediately kind of builds rapport with the audience. It's like a great opener and you kind of address what everyone's thinking and it leapfrogs that objection and then you can kind of get into the actual topic as if you are a 45-year-old seasoned veteran.

Seth: Yeah. If you come out and own it, they can't use it against you anymore.

Kyle Marcotte: Exactly.

Seth: Yeah.

Jaren: That reminds me of the last scene of 8 Mile, if you guys have ever seen it where Eminem is like “I am white trash, I'm from the…” That's how he won.

Seth: At the end of every show, at the end of most shows anyway, we like to go one step further and learn a little bit more about our guests and just understand how they think. Kyle, the first question we want to ask you is what is your biggest fear?

Kyle Marcotte: My biggest fear is probably not living up to the potential that I know in my heart I have. The responsibility to live up to. I think that scares me a lot of nights, but it's also kind of what pushes me to keep going.

Jaren: I love that man. What are you most proud of in your life so far?

Kyle Marcotte: Probably my relationship with my parents. I think that a lot of kids my age are a little bit resentful of their parents, but I started to realize that my parents are all you have when things do go hard. Even when they're not on your side of the brief moment, they end up being the only people you can turn to. I'm really proud of that relationship.

Seth: What is the most important lesson you have ever learned?

Kyle Marcotte: Most important lesson I've ever learned is, just bet on yourself and don't listen to what other people have to say. If you wouldn't go and actively seek their advice, then don't take their criticisms. That's a good way to put it, I guess. If you wouldn't go, “Hey Bobby, what do you think about this?” then don't listen to Bobby when he comes over and says, “You're an idiot, man. What are you doing?”

Jaren: I love that man.

Seth: I think that was the fastest round of those questions you've ever had Jaron. Usually people are deliberating for five minutes to figure out the answer. That was like boom, boom. We are done.

Jaren: That was awesome. Kyle, I know you mentioned earlier an article that you wrote on your website. What is that URL so that we can look in the show notes?

Kyle Marcotte: It should just be on the homepage of kylemarcotte.com and I'm hoping to have it pop out at you. So, we'll see.

Seth: Kyle’s last name is spelled M-A-R-C-O-T-T-E. Kyle, is there anything else people should do if they want to get ahold of you or learn more about you or anything else, they should know about?

Kyle Marcotte: Yeah. Number one, I'm pretty big on social media. I post every day. Kyle Marcotte 9 is my Instagram and then Kyle Marcotte at Facebook and LinkedIn. And then also my website is a great place to reach out. I actually do answer pretty much everything that gets sent to me. So, feel free to. The website again is kylemarcotte.com

Seth: Awesome man. Well, thanks again for sharing your time with us and letting us know your insights on all this apartment syndications stuff. It's been awesome to chat with you. Hopefully, we can talk again at some points. Yeah, man, I wish all the best.

Kyle Marcotte: Yeah. Thank you for having me guys.

Seth: There you have its folks. Jaren, what was your favorite part of that interview? Is anything stick out as a big “A-ha” moment for you?

Jaren: Yeah, man. I think it was just his mindset. It was like everything I threw at him and I'm a pretty optimistic guy, but everything that was kind of like a counter or negative that I threw at him, he was just like, “Nope”. And it was just a really inspiring takeaway that I really think everything does boil down to mindset, man. It's all mindset. If you think it's going to be hard to get into apartment syndications then it's going to be hard. But if you think it's going to be easy, then for whatever reason, like actions or events follow that. I don't know, like that energy or that thing you put out in the world where it's like, “Nope, it's going to be easy”. And that confidence that comes from it, it’s just doors open when you think that way.

Seth: Yeah. That's like the way you mentally process any event that happens, whether it's good or bad. It's like, “Yeah, I can see how that has a huge role to play in that”.

Jaren: He's like “A lot of people think that my age is a problem. I think it's an advantage”. And it's true. If you own it and you walk in and you're like, “Yeah dude, I'm the only 21-year-old here that's done 107-units”. Or even if you haven't done anything yet, you're like, “I'm the only 21-year-old here that's going to do a deal”. It’s confidence that it opens up doors. It makes people attracted to you and take you seriously.

Seth: I've heard from a lot of people who are, I don't want to use the word “old” but older like later in life and they see that as a disadvantage for getting stared at or succeeding. And at the same time, I'm like, I could look at that and be like, “No, that's actually an asset”. Age is an asset. You look like you have experience. There’re all kinds of ways you can look at things as positive or negative.

Jaren: Yeah, 100% man.

Seth: One of the pastors at my church is kind of like Kyle in that. I think this guy is like 27, I think is his age. He's not like super young, but he's not that old either. He's on the younger end of life. But nobody looks at him that way. He's so confident and he's so good at administration and managing people and telling people what to do in a nice way that he just speaks to the authority and it's like his age is 100% irrelevant. Like nobody cares. He can own the room if he needs to. And I think maybe part of that is personality that you're born with, but it goes to show it is possible. It's not like you have to be the subservient, scared person wandering through life. It's all in how you look at things and if you're willing to take the initiative.

Jaren: Yeah man, that's really good. What was your biggest takeaway, Seth?

Seth: I think for me, I don't know if he is an obsessive personality, but I know some people who are obsessive, like they'll find something. Like in his case maybe apartment syndications and obsess about it. Just learn everything there is to know and become an expert on it in a matter of weeks or even months. Kind of seems like maybe that's what he did because that guy is super knowledgeable. He knows what he's talking about. You can tell just by how quick he is to respond and he just knows the answers. It seems like he could probably succeed at many things in life if he chose to obsess about it and become the best there is at that thing. It's kind of about making that decision like “This is important, this is going to work. I'm going to master this”.

For the little fun question of the day that Jaren and I are going to answer today, the question is this – “When do you feel happiest?”

I think in this stage of life that I'm in right now, a lot of my happiness is tied to my kids. I just have a lot of fun with them. I love their personalities. Their age is three and five as we were recording this. They're at a stage where they're both still innocent. I'm seeing their personalities develop and learning new things to say. I don’t know, it's just so much fun to not only just to interact with them, but even after they go to bed at night and I'm just kicking back and thinking about them and I get to just reminisce like, “Man, that was fun how I got to do that with them today”. I don't know, I get a lot of joy from their existence and just having them in my life. It hasn't always been that way obviously. I haven't always had kids, but now that they're here, a lot of my happiness is tied up in them, I think.

Jaren: It's awesome man. I love that. Well, for me man, like this David Goggins guy, his whole mindset and life philosophy has kind of, “I'm taking my world by storm” and I am most happiest after I've accomplished something very, very hard. For example, Seth, if you want to put that picture that I showed you over the weekend. I put a really crazy picture of me running 10 miles in 0-degree weather when I was at best ever. Because I was up in the mountains in Colorado in Kingstone and it was very, very cold. I actually put that picture of me as my screensaver on my phone because when I look back and I see myself and I reflect on myself accomplishing things that other people say is too extreme or impossible, that's where I find true joy man. I think that's the reason why people, I know they say that there might be like a chemical release or something in the brain when you run, but I think a lot of it is tied to the fact that running is really, really hard and it sucks. And if you've done something long distance like a 10-miler or a 12-miler run, the sense of accomplishment man it's what drives me. It's what drives me out of depression because it's quantifiable proof that I'm significant. And I know that, when we talk about Enneagram type three, that's probably the biggest character flaw in my type of personality is that I'm chasing significance and I'm trying to prove to myself that I have worth. For me, I get the biggest sense of, “Yeah, bro, I'm amazing. I just ran 10 miles in the freezing cold. Nobody would do that”.

Seth: For those who don't know about the Enneagram, it's kind of like a personality test and the type three that Jaron is referring to is called the “Achiever”. It's one who finds a lot of fulfillment and that kind of thing in achieving things. It makes sense that you would find a lot of joy in that. Personally, being a type six, the loyalist who lives very fear filled life. I feel happiest when I'm just worrying about things. I'm just kidding. That's a joke. That's cool man. It almost makes you wonder like a mother who goes through labor pains in almost a year of just discomfort in difficulty to give birth to a child and then feels that instant love and connection after the child is born. I wonder if it has anything to do with the trial, she has to endure to bring that baby into the world. I wonder would it be the same if it was just easy and you just kind of snap your fingers and it was done? I don't know.

Jaren: Probably not. I don’t know. That's an interesting question. I don't know man. I just feel like I've really embraced suffering as a means of personal growth. I feel like life really boils down to this huge self-development, our personal development game. It's just all about overcoming obstacles and life has a bunch of obstacles to overcome so that you can grow. And when I am growing and I can look back and say, “Okay, I've been this heavy, I've changed things up, I've figured things out and now I'm losing weight or I'm able to do things that I never thought are possible”. There was a time in my life where I would've been like, “Man, you like running. You're dumb. Why would anybody ever run?” But the reasons why they love to run is because it's controlled suffering that they can employ in their lives so that they can overcome it and they can get better. That whole game, that whole mental game of just like finding things that suck every single day that you can overcome so that you can get stronger and better. That's my jam right now. That's like my whole life philosophy right now.

Seth: Yeah. It almost makes me wonder in the pursuit of wealth for instance, as a real estate investor, say if you have like a goal number you want to get to in life. Like “When I make this much, I'm good, then I can stop”, for those out there who feel that way. I wonder if they almost hit like a sort of depression or something when they get there. Because it's like, “Man, I've worked so hard for this for so long and it's over”. There's almost like this weird fulfillment that comes from the struggle just from plugging away and seeing little steps of progress forward each day. And when that is done, it seems that would almost be sort of sad. What now?

Jaren: I would always pursue another goal and be like, “All right, I'm going to go learn an instrument or go and get into working out or something”.

Seth: Yeah, totally.

Seth: For those out there who want to tag along with what we're doing feel free to text the word “free”. F-R-E-E to 33777. You can stay up to date on all the new things happen at retipster.com. Go ahead and text the word “free” to 33777 and you can make sure that we stay on your radar.

If you want to check out links and descriptions and all kinds of information regarding this conversation, you can check out the show notes for this episode at retipster.com/64. Thanks again for listening and we'll talk to you next time.